BMW Shifter

[DaveB]

Indeed. Its mosty a matter of "taste, style, design.." emotional. Not function. Perhaps there are already a few aftermarket shiftcovers available. (I dont care about this - as long it does the job.

@DaveB & @emax

The problem of electronics "avoidance" - as of now - there are so many regulatory topics - to get a new vehicle permitted to be driven - so its becoming (next to) impossible without electronics- The gearbox has a vital part in emissions control.

Also - (once again - I grew up in an garage) - and in sense of reliability.. Had an old Mitsubishi Galant ( baroque) Version..75 HP no TUV / Road clearance, - bought it for 300DEM at that time.had 2 holes of rust below the doors. - thats ist. - So went with my dad - welded the holes. Verified the rest. Was ok - got road clearance, reregistered, and served me well during national service and first semesters of Unversity afterwards. No issues - even with -22 C near Kassel .. was nicked rice bowl driver - but had quite often to help the Volkswagen and others to provide a kickstart - with Battery and cables. Had these in the boot - never used these for myself.
In the beginning - I found electronics quite unreliable. More often Water in plugs / oxidation isses, external such as Martens.
Looking back last 20 years - electronics in vehicles became quite reliable. All early complaints - ceased. When I remember my collaegues / friends when they tell about issues - its either - alternator, cooling or injectors and drivechain or turbo - they have issues with. Not electronics, not body.
The time of the old Mitsubishi - was rather the body that fell apart - Petrol engine and drivetrain were virtually unbreakable.
Coming Back to IG
Limited electronics- fine with me.
Body: Ineos did a lot of work to prevent rusting.
Everything else seems rock solid too.
Dont see much topics that could run into "unreliablity" there.

Automatic transmission - (okay - I like it, others may not, utilise automatic vehicles continuously since at least 25 years) Never missed the manual.
If somebody wants it manual - so what matter of personal taste. And I like the combination of diesel engine and Auto. - A diesel drops rpm quite fast when manually shifted gears (at least I felt it that way) hence auto transmission and diesel engine is just a perfect combination.

All other (gearshift look) is a matter of taste too. ( and thats a personal topic) see top.

Again - no electronic gadgets at all? - Discuss with regulatory bodies and "green" politics, control freaks and major influencing NGO (in Germany DUH )
In their opinion we should not be allowed to possess such a vehicle at all.

I really enjoy driving a manual.
I have had many and I used to own a three on the tree manual as well.
My preference is an automatic for at last the last 20 years.
Even the occasional drive with the paddle shifter still makes me realise how much better a good auto is.

 

[Tazzieman]

I really enjoy driving a manual.
I have had many and I used to own a three on the tree manual as well.
My preference is an automatic for at last the last 20 years.
Even the occasional drive with the paddle shifter still makes me realise how much better a good auto is.

My little '64 Fiat is a 4 on the tree and an absolute mechanical delight to drive .
My only wish is for an overdrive - it's rather loud at 100 km/r!

 

[TD5-90]

Indeed. Its mosty a matter of "taste, style, design.." emotional. Not function. Perhaps there are already a few aftermarket shiftcovers available. (I dont care about this - as long it does the job.

@DaveB & @emax

The problem of electronics "avoidance" - as of now - there are so many regulatory topics - to get a new vehicle permitted to be driven - so its becoming (next to) impossible without electronics- The gearbox has a vital part in emissions control.

Also - (once again - I grew up in an garage) - and in sense of reliability.. Had an old Mitsubishi Galant ( baroque) Version..75 HP no TUV / Road clearance, - bought it for 300DEM at that time.had 2 holes of rust below the doors. - thats ist. - So went with my dad - welded the holes. Verified the rest. Was ok - got road clearance, reregistered, and served me well during national service and first semesters of Unversity afterwards. No issues - even with -22 C near Kassel .. was nicked rice bowl driver - but had quite often to help the Volkswagen and others to provide a kickstart - with Battery and cables. Had these in the boot - never used these for myself.
In the beginning - I found electronics quite unreliable. More often Water in plugs / oxidation isses, external such as Martens.
Looking back last 20 years - electronics in vehicles became quite reliable. All early complaints - ceased. When I remember my collaegues / friends when they tell about issues - its either - alternator, cooling or injectors and drivechain or turbo - they have issues with. Not electronics, not body.
The time of the old Mitsubishi - was rather the body that fell apart - Petrol engine and drivetrain were virtually unbreakable.
Coming Back to IG
Limited electronics- fine with me.
Body: Ineos did a lot of work to prevent rusting.
Everything else seems rock solid too.
Dont see much topics that could run into "unreliablity" there.

Automatic transmission - (okay - I like it, others may not, utilise automatic vehicles continuously since at least 25 years) Never missed the manual.
If somebody wants it manual - so what matter of personal taste. And I like the combination of diesel engine and Auto. - A diesel drops rpm quite fast when manually shifted gears (at least I felt it that way) hence auto transmission and diesel engine is just a perfect combination.

All other (gearshift look) is a matter of taste too. ( and thats a personal topic) see top.

Again - no electronic gadgets at all? - Discuss with regulatory bodies and "green" politics, control freaks and major influencing NGO (in Germany DUH )
In their opinion we should not be allowed to possess such a vehicle at all.

Full ACK!!
Only one one thing to correct ;-) : Replace Mitsubishi with VW Golf 2 TD of '83. 600.000km with 1st engine, injectors, transmission, injection pump, driveshafts, cv joints.No_ drivetrain parts replaced! Turbo was replaced not because of failure, but for the reason the wastegate actuator was rusted off... ) And yes: Always carried a second battery an jump start cables, used them on other cars only. Engine showed low oil pressure in the end; reason: Intermediate shaft bearing worn. Got the engine rebuilt, it's waiting for the rest of the car to receive some attention and go for the next 500000+ ;-)

Electronics: True. Quality and knowledge has improved vastly in the last 25 years. Doing power electronics stuff for 25 years, I can tell that it is _very_well_ possible to design stuff to work reliably for 20+ years.
Not long ago I had a bad Digifant 1 control unit opened: If you show this design to any automotive electronics professional today and ask for a lifetime estimation/calculation, I bet it would be rather hours than days... OTOH, it was possible to debug the unit with a simple multimeter and find a shorted electrolytic cap in the lambda circuit. A quick search in the electronics trash (in this case a failed DSL modem) delivered some replacement cap. T3 running again! Electronics fixed "in the outback"!
Other example: A TD5 ECU, as it is built, would _never_ find a way into a new vehicle today...

BMW shifter: No go. Absolutely.
Never drove a BMW before, but sooo many other vehicles, and and coming from sth simple and intuitive (VW DSG, my first own automatic transmission) found the "reversed" logic(?) concept of the Grenadier stick extremely annoying: Shifting down by pushing forward?? BTW reverse of the transfer box... Maybe this can be fixed by a software patch... The haptics are, IMHO, a nightmare. Just my opinion. Clearly cannot be fixed by software...

But that's all irrelevant in the end: LET'S DRIVE!!

 

[DaveB]

Full ACK!!
Only one one thing to correct ;-) : Replace Mitsubishi with VW Golf 2 TD of '83. 600.000km with 1st engine, injectors, transmission, injection pump, driveshafts, cv joints.No_ drivetrain parts replaced! Turbo was replaced not because of failure, but for the reason the wastegate actuator was rusted off... ) And yes: Always carried a second battery an jump start cables, used them on other cars only. Engine showed low oil pressure in the end; reason: Intermediate shaft bearing worn. Got the engine rebuilt, it's waiting for the rest of the car to receive some attention and go for the next 500000+ ;-)

Electronics: True. Quality and knowledge has improved vastly in the last 25 years. Doing power electronics stuff for 25 years, I can tell that it is _very_well_ possible to design stuff to work reliably for 20+ years.
Not long ago I had a bad Digifant 1 control unit opened: If you show this design to any automotive electronics professional today and ask for a lifetime estimation/calculation, I bet it would be rather hours than days... OTOH, it was possible to debug the unit with a simple multimeter and find a shorted electrolytic cap in the lambda circuit. A quick search in the electronics trash (in this case a failed DSL modem) delivered some replacement cap. T3 running again! Electronics fixed "in the outback"!
Other example: A TD5 ECU, as it is built, would _never_ find a way into a new vehicle today...

BMW shifter: No go. Absolutely.
Never drove a BMW before, but sooo many other vehicles, and and coming from sth simple and intuitive (VW DSG, my first own automatic transmission) found the "reversed" logic(?) concept of the Grenadier stick extremely annoying: Shifting down by pushing forward?? BTW reverse of the transfer box... Maybe this can be fixed by a software patch... The haptics are, IMHO, a nightmare. Just my opinion. Clearly cannot be fixed by software...

But that's all irrelevant in the end: LET'S DRIVE!!

How did you go with the flux capacitor Doc Brown?
I drove the Grenadier with the manual similar to driving a tractor
Select the gear and drive.
When you need to change the gear do so but otherwise throw it back into auto,
So going up and over a very steep obstacle we selected low, locked second gear then when we got to the bottom back into auto
At no time would I drive in manual and go up and down through the gears as if I was driving a semi-auto.

 

[TD5-90]

How did you go with the flux capacitor Doc Brown?
I drove the Grenadier with the manual similar to driving a tractor
Select the gear and drive.
When you need to change the gear do so but otherwise throw it back into auto,
So going up and over a very steep obstacle we selected low, locked second gear then when we got to the bottom back into auto
At no time would I drive in manual and go up and down through the gears as if I was driving a semi-auto.

A flux _compensator_, Sir, is sth much more complicated than a _capacitor_ ;-) However, doing proper designs with capacitors sometimes has its obstacles too...

Gren test drive: Agreed, same way you did.
Driving longer distances (off road/gravel etc) with different steepness I would shift manually, not trusting any automatics. Just like with a manual.
But maybe that's wrong.

 

[DaveB]

A flux _compensator_, Sir, is sth much more complicated than a _capacitor_ ;-) However, doing proper designs with capacitors sometimes has its obstacles too...

Gren test drive: Agreed, same way you did.
Driving longer distances (off road/gravel etc) with different steepness I would shift manually, not trusting any automatics. Just like with a manual.
But maybe that's wrong.

One of the things they changed is that when in manual it 100% holds gear
That was exactly why it was done so you can select the gear you want and it stays there.

 

[Davman]

One of the things they changed is that when in manual it 100% holds gear
That was exactly why it was done so you can select the gear you want and it stays there.

Perfect for towing heavy loads.

 

[Spjnr]

Perfect for towing heavy loads.

Coupled with the ability to be in Low range with the central diff unlocked, I really think those of us who tow big trailers are in for a treat with the Grenadier

 

[DaveB]

I think it was in the Budapest test drive where the Austrian driver managed to get up to 80kmh on the tar in low range

 

[Spjnr]

I think it was in the Budapest test drive where the Austrian driver managed to get up to 80kmh on the tar in low range

Exactly, perfect for the "its only down the road it'll be fine" moments

 

[misterioso]

I have no idea why people are so hung up on needing a manual transmission. Off-road, a modern auto makes a manual look very inadequate, especially so the ZF transmission.

In my experience, a manual transmission is useful in extreme off-road situations.

If you're stuck down in a hole with mud or loose dirt and you have an incline in front and in back of your vehicle, you can rock your way out of the hole by going back and forth, forward and backwards, using the clutch pedal to modulate speed. The idea here is to build momentum and allow the tires to dig for traction on both ends of the vehicle. You're actually digging a bigger hole with your tires, but the intent is to create space and traction, in turn creating enough distance to build speed and propel your vehicle out of the hole.

With an automatic transmission, you have to put your foot on the brake to change gears, causing a cessation of momentum. This situation doesn't happen often and usually you would need to resort to this tactic if you're a lone vehicle with no recovery assistance available. If you're off-roading with companion vehicles, they could simply use a tow-strap to pull you out of your stuck position. Or if you're alone and you have a winch (preferably both front and rear), you can find something solid to tie onto and winch your way out of the hole. But that's assuming there's an available boulder or tree to latch your cable onto.

Rocking back and forth with a manual transmission often the easiest and fastest way to get out of a hole with an ORV. It's definitely not the best thing to do, as it's a good way to wear out a clutch, but in a survival situation, it's an acceptable practice.

 

[misterioso]

Not going to be any manuals when we all go electric so better get used to it.
I enjoy driving a manual occasionally but wouldn't want to do it every day.
When we put the Grenadier into manual mode it held that gear up hill and down hill.
I manually changed it from 1st low to second and then third as needed then back to first to go up the steep grass berm.
Once over I just flicked it back across to auto.
Only thing missing was the third pedal and the space needed to put one.
I have seen so many people over the years resting their left foot on the clutch, and not even realizing it.

Let's not write off the manual transmission quite yet.

Lexus in development of a manual transmission for electric cars | Evo

Sounds like an oxymoron doesn’t it? But this is more ‘virtual combustion powertrain’ than just a fake gear stick…

www.evo.co.uk

 

[AnD3rew]

In my experience, a manual transmission is useful in extreme off-road situations.

If you're stuck down in a hole with mud or loose dirt and you have an incline in front and in back of your vehicle, you can rock your way out of the hole by going back and forth, forward and backwards, using the clutch pedal to modulate speed. The idea here is to build momentum and allow the tires to dig for traction on both ends of the vehicle. You're actually digging a bigger hole with your tires, but the intent is to create space and traction, in turn creating enough distance to build speed and propel your vehicle out of the hole.

With an automatic transmission, you have to put your foot on the brake to change gears, causing a cessation of momentum. This situation doesn't happen often and usually you would need to resort to this tactic if you're a lone vehicle with no recovery assistance available. If you're off-roading with companion vehicles, they could simply use a tow-strap to pull you out of your stuck position. Or if you're alone and you have a winch (preferably both front and rear), you can find something solid to tie onto and winch your way out of the hole. But that's assuming there's an available boulder or tree to latch your cable onto.

Rocking back and forth with a manual transmission often the easiest and fastest way to get out of a hole with an ORV. It's definitely not the best thing to do, as it's a good way to wear out a clutch, but in a survival situation, it's an acceptable practice.

In my experience driving both manual and automatic off road for every thing a manual might do better there are teo the auto does better. Total auto convert for offroad. I wouldn’t want my E-Type to be auto (it once was and has been converted to manual) but my 4x4 100% yes.

And also agree that the shifter for the Grenadier looks and feels wrong for the vehicle, but se la vie, I can live with it.

 

[ORSO]

Good evening,

after doing a road test with the IG I had some doubts about the gear selector:
- if the selector is accidentally moved towards neutral or reverse while driving, what happens?
- and if the PARK button is pressed?
- driving in manual, if by inserting a gear and pushing the lever forwards the PARK button is mistakenly pushed, what happens?

thanks

 

[Tazzieman]

Good evening,

after doing a road test with the IG I had some doubts about the gear selector:
- if the selector is accidentally moved towards neutral or reverse while driving, what happens?
- and if the PARK button is pressed?
- driving in manual, if by inserting a gear and pushing the lever forwards the PARK button is mistakenly pushed, what happens?

thanks

I imagine either of 2 things

 

[Tazzieman]

However , IT has allowed for this human scenario.

 

[Eric]

Good evening,

after doing a road test with the IG I had some doubts about the gear selector:
- if the selector is accidentally moved towards neutral or reverse while driving, what happens?
- and if the PARK button is pressed?
- driving in manual, if by inserting a gear and pushing the lever forwards the PARK button is mistakenly pushed, what happens?

thanks

And how many BMWs are on the road with this lever?
I think you'll find the electronics protect the system

 

[anand]

Good evening,

after doing a road test with the IG I had some doubts about the gear selector:
- if the selector is accidentally moved towards neutral or reverse while driving, what happens?
- and if the PARK button is pressed?
- driving in manual, if by inserting a gear and pushing the lever forwards the PARK button is mistakenly pushed, what happens?

The only of those scenarios that I have tried is the first, and it goes to neutral. I've done that many times when I thought I was in manual mode and actually in auto.

However, I am 99.9% certain that in scenario 2 and 3, nothing happens (assuming you are moving at >1-3kph).

The ZF shifter has been in use in tons of vehicles for well over a decade at this point, and there are so many other shifters that operate in a similar fashion (with a push button for gear selection); I don't know of any that leave Park/Reverse functions active while moving in drive

 

[bigleonski]

Good evening,

after doing a road test with the IG I had some doubts about the gear selector:
- if the selector is accidentally moved towards neutral or reverse while driving, what happens?
- and if the PARK button is pressed?
- driving in manual, if by inserting a gear and pushing the lever forwards the PARK button is mistakenly pushed, what happens?

thanks

I have no idea.
Having owned 2 BMW’s for around 12 years now with the same gear selector, none of your scenarios has ever happened.
So I think you are over thinking this.

 

[Jean Mercier]

Good evening,

after doing a road test with the IG I had some doubts about the gear selector:
- if the selector is accidentally moved towards neutral or reverse while driving, what happens?
- and if the PARK button is pressed?
- driving in manual, if by inserting a gear and pushing the lever forwards the PARK button is mistakenly pushed, what happens?

thanks

I had almost no experience with an automatic gear, last time was about 12 years ago in Australia.
Therefore in the beginning I made some mistakes (still sometimes now), and no technical issues at all. I never had the impression I could have damaged my car. I think that indeed, the system (being it software or hardware) doesn't switch in "dangerous modes" when it is definitely wrong to do so.

I also use the manual mode to slow down my car (engine break): not the most efficient engine break, but it works.

The only thing I don't like: when in cruise control, and switching to manual mode to use the engine break, it should (in my opinion) switch of the cruise control, as it does when you put your foot on the break, but it doesn't.
Therefore, in lower gear (manual mode) the motor want's to accelerate while you want to slow it down.