BMW Shifter

[Disco Dave]

When we put the Grenadier into manual mode it held that gear up hill and down hill.
I manually changed it from 1st low to second and then third as needed then back to first to go up the steep grass berm.
Once over I just flicked it back across to auto.

Exactly, and just like my 22 year old D2. I can’t help but think the IG was conceived to be an upgraded D2, well it will be for me.

 

[Jean Mercier]

Actually it is a kangaroo skin hat

The hat, that's what I have on my head, I bought it in Darwin some 10 years ago

 

[ECrider]

The hat, that's what I have on my head, I bought it in Darwin some 10 years ago

Jean 'Skippy' Mercier

 

[Krabby]

Exactly, and just like my 22 year old D2. I can’t help but think the IG was conceived to be an upgraded D2, well it will be for me.

@Disco Dave It's funny but I've been thinking the same way. I loved driving my D2 (2004) both on and off road and if the IG is a beefier more capable version I'll be happy. Provided that it RELIABLE. Shortly after I got my Disco we had a massive snowstorm - I was so excited. Guess whose Land Rover refused to start? The truck was just a few months from new but it had some relay short or something. I had to get it towed to the dealer from my driveway - pretty disappointing.

 

[Krabby]

I agree with the original premise of the thread: the BMW shifter does not fit well with the overall ethos of the Grenadier, nor does it fit well visually in the cabin.

I think the ethos of the Grenadier calls for a manual transmission, but I'm not going to grind that axe. It is pointless, and non-productive.

However, I still think Ineos could have done better than the BMW shifter, and provided a shifter that is more mechanical and less electronic. Yes, yes, I know that even the "more mechanical" automatic shifters use electronics, but there is a difference between a BMW shifter and some of the other auto shifters on the market. Take the Jeep JL Wrangler shifter as an example of a "more mechanical" shifter: both the Grenadier and the Jeep use the ZF 8-speed automatic transmission, but the Jeep's shifter moves, and has positive engagement when you go into gear. It is very tactile, feels more mechanical, and is more obviously in whatever gear (park/drive/reverse) you select. Also, if you click it over to the left, you go into "manual shift" mode, and the manual shifts are crisp, with positive physical feedback (haptics) to the driver.

Both in terms of aesthetics (less important), and in terms of physical feedback and mechanical feel (more important), I think Ineos should have developed their own shifter (or borrowed one from Jeep). I am not suggesting "Jeep is better than Grenadier" or any nonsense like that, so let's not go down that rabbit hole. I just agree with the OP that the BMW shifter is out of place in the Grenadier.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Having never owned/driven a BMW, does that kind of shifter provide some advantage we’re unaware of? Does it provide a specific benefit that the shifter setup in a JK can’t?

 

[klarie]

In my humble opinion I 've got no problem with the BMW lever shifter. - It just reminds on a BMW. This is just "style" - and doesn't contribute to practical requirements. It does the job - nothing more counts for me.

In my Disco there is a wheel selector for gear. - The newer Disco Sport are back to a lever type shifter.
I liked the way in Mercedes Benz - gear lever near steering wheel, despite the fact my spouse didn't like it. Advantage . more storage space in middle.
I disagree with manual gear - never again. - If needed to do manual - click switch and manual shift paddles at steering wheel I am used to.
The problem I am often in conditions where I need both hands at steering wheel - I ve got grass and forest roads where agricultural vehicles with heavy weight digged real trenches from their traces. sometimes 5 inch / 10 inch.. so I try to keep the vehicle in a way to avoid the "track trenches" Not always possible. Covered with mud / water / mixed underground. My Disco is a bit dancing then.. means keep both hands at steering wheel at any time. Shifting gear, clutch operation and steady on accelerator is contradicting. - In this case manual shifting by paddles while maintaining continous speed / and both hands on the steeringwheel is a must.
Maybe you have different conditions. - but in my experience there is nothing better than an automatic gearbox in this conditions as described. (additional uphill / downhill and sharp bends)

Edit - look at the thread - Midlands Machinery. The conditions shown there are the ones usually for me. Try to make some pictures next visit in my hunting area.

 

[Jean Mercier]

While I agree with some of you that the look of the BMW shifter is quite awkward for a Grenadier, I don't mind: I never look at the shifter while driving

I almost never drove an automatic car in my life. The last time was in Australia 11 years ago. This was OK, good experience, easy, smooth. The only difficult part was driving on the "wrong side of the road" - and "upside down" .

I hired a car the last two days to be sure to be on time to catch my plane in Sidney, because the biggest part of the trip I did it ... hitchhiking, alone, like in my young years. Not because it was cheaper this way, but because of getting at places you don't reach by public transportation and because you meet "nice people". I often filled (paid) the gasoline or diesel tank of the people who gave me a lift. I enjoyed Australia a lot, mostly very nice people from a variety of origins, including native people gave me a ride!

 

[rovie]

In my humble opinion I 've got no problem with the BMW lever shifter. - It just reminds on a BMW. This is just "style" - and doesn't contribute to practical requirements. It does the job - nothing more counts for me.

In my Disco there is a wheel selector for gear. - The newer Disco Sport are back to a lever type shifter.
I liked the way in Mercedes Benz - gear lever near steering wheel, despite the fact my spouse didn't like it. Advantage . more storage space in middle.
I disagree with manual gear - never again. - If needed to do manual - click switch and manual shift paddles at steering wheel I am used to.
The problem I am often in conditions where I need both hands at steering wheel - I ve got grass and forest roads where agricultural vehicles with heavy weight digged real trenches from their traces. sometimes 5 inch / 10 inch.. so I try to keep the vehicle in a way to avoid the "track trenches" Not always possible. Covered with mud / water / mixed underground. My Disco is a bit dancing then.. means keep both hands at steering wheel at any time. Shifting gear, clutch operation and steady on accelerator is contradicting. - In this case manual shifting by paddles while maintaining continous speed / and both hands on the steeringwheel is a must.
Maybe you have different conditions. - but in my experience there is nothing better than an automatic gearbox in this conditions as described. (additional uphill / downhill and sharp bends)

Edit - look at the thread - Midlands Machinery. The conditions shown there are the ones usually for me. Try to make some pictures next visit in my hunting area.

Yes, an automatic transmission is convenient. But let's face it, many generations have driven their standard Land Rovers in rough terrain. Not to mention the overlanders who drove from London to Singapore. I would argue that these routes are much more difficult to navigate than Frankfurt's city forest.
I also drive my Series 2 with two hands on the wheel. So far, however, I have always managed to reach for the gear lever.

 

[klarie]

@rovie agreed. However - why must we do "everything" old school . Seriously - I do NOT drive at all in downtown Frankfurt, Berlin, London. Vienna, Barcelona Munich.
to many f*ing idiots, with cars they cant afford, plus delivery vans plus bicycles ignoring all traffic regulations. - No - catch the tube instead or taxi. I prefer working from home.

The manual gear is still okay - but I had my experience.. on this .. however - why doing this if there is a more convenient way? I didnt write "everybody must go to automatic". However for me it is a "must" - But there is something else.. the engine has significant torque. - A HGV manual gearbox and clutch can be dimensioned to cope with torque. What should be a manual gearbox and clutch look like in this case? That is often the reason for automatic.

 

[DaveB]

I agree wholeheartedly.

Having never owned/driven a BMW, does that kind of shifter provide some advantage we’re unaware of? Does it provide a specific benefit that the shifter setup in a JK can’t?

It is extremely compact
They have to fit a lot of other stuff in that small space and a standard mechanical gearshift takes up a lot of room.
Considering a normal automatic shifter spends most of it's time when you are driving just sitting in drive, and occasionally reverse, they tend to take up a lot of real estate

 

[Norville]

I feel this is the one item they took the lazy way out and used customer pricing as the reason. If this is a fact - what else did they overlook to save a few bucks? It stands out like a sore thumb IMHO. I've already replaced the graphic skin on the front of my GFs BMW shifter (2016 version, but this is common) as it cracked and failed fairly quickly. This is not an inexpensive vehicle and is a bizarre decision. I would guess this gets upgraded in future versions for sure.

Just odd for something we touch every time we drive and it feels pretty janky for this vehicle. I'm sure it will function fine for a bit.

 

[Jeremy996]

I feel this is the one item they took the lazy way out and used customer pricing as the reason. If this is a fact - what else did they overlook to save a few bucks? It stands out like a sore thumb IMHO. I've already replaced the graphic skin on the front of my GFs BMW shifter (2016 version, but this is common) as it cracked and failed fairly quickly. This is not an inexpensive vehicle and is a bizarre decision. I would guess this gets upgraded in future versions for sure.

Just odd for something we touch every time we drive and it feels pretty janky for this vehicle. I'm sure it will function fine for a bit.

It's not a few bucks; I whinged at a mate who is an automotive compliance engineer who told me rather firmly that the auto shifter is part of the critical driveline assemblage, (with the engine, auto gearbox, transfer box and engine management), so to change it would require the whole assembly to be fully retested and certified. His guess of the additional cost was GBP£5Million by the time the new part was tested, found satisfactory and tooled for production, assuming it's just a fancy housing for micro-switches and wires. That is before we cost the production delay, as it will take a couple of years from decision to full integration and production.

 

[emax]

why must we do "everything" old school

We don't have to.

The only thing that many want to avoid is electronics, if it can be replaced by mechanics. And that is also possible with the shifter - even if it would take up a bit more space.

The problem with "avoiding electronics," however, is that while it is only one single paradigm, it affects a zillion things.

 

[Cheshire cat]

I feel this is the one item they took the lazy way out and used customer pricing as the reason. If this is a fact - what else did they overlook to save a few bucks? It stands out like a sore thumb IMHO. I've already replaced the graphic skin on the front of my GFs BMW shifter (2016 version, but this is common) as it cracked and failed fairly quickly. This is not an inexpensive vehicle and is a bizarre decision. I would guess this gets upgraded in future versions for sure.

Just odd for something we touch every time we drive and it feels pretty janky for this vehicle. I'm sure it will function fine for a bit.

Up until this week I would have completely agreed with you regarding the look of the Stock BMW shift, however sitting in the vehicle with my wife at the Halliwell Jones event in Chester and pointing out to my wife the incongruous looking gear stick; she asked what was wrong with it. At that point I really didn’t know. Looked absolutely fine to me and not the monstrosity I had summoned up in my mind.

 

[DaveB]

We don't have to.

The only thing that many want to avoid is electronics, if it can be replaced by mechanics. And that is also possible with the shifter - even if it would take up a bit more space.

The problem with "avoiding electronics," however, is that while it is only one single paradigm, it affects a zillion things.

poor gearstick getting picked on while other parts are left alone.

• central display
• Electric windows
• Bluetooth phone connection
• LED lights front and rear
• Electric mirrors
• C-Tek battery management
• heated seats
• reversing camera
• Throttle position sensor
• ABS sensors
• manual selector knob next to the gearstick for those too old to use the touchscreen
• cruise control
• etc etc etc etc etc

 

[DaveB]

Up until this week I would have completely agreed with you regarding the look of the Stock BMW shift, however sitting in the vehicle with my wife at the Halliwell Jones event in Chester and pointing out to my wife the incongruous looking gear stick; she asked what was wrong with it. At that point I really didn’t know. Looked absolutely fine to me and not the monstrosity I had summoned up in my mind.

Imagine if you were one of the 6.95 Billion people who had never sat in a BMW????

 

[klarie]

Up until this week I would have completely agreed with you regarding the look of the Stock BMW shift, however sitting in the vehicle with my wife at the Halliwell Jones event in Chester and pointing out to my wife the incongruous looking gear stick; she asked what was wrong with it. At that point I really didn’t know. Looked absolutely fine to me and not the monstrosity I had summoned up in my mind.

Indeed. Its mosty a matter of "taste, style, design.." emotional. Not function. Perhaps there are already a few aftermarket shiftcovers available. (I dont care about this - as long it does the job.

@DaveB & @emax

The problem of electronics "avoidance" - as of now - there are so many regulatory topics - to get a new vehicle permitted to be driven - so its becoming (next to) impossible without electronics- The gearbox has a vital part in emissions control.

Also - (once again - I grew up in an garage) - and in sense of reliability.. Had an old Mitsubishi Galant ( baroque) Version..75 HP no TUV / Road clearance, - bought it for 300DEM at that time.had 2 holes of rust below the doors. - thats ist. - So went with my dad - welded the holes. Verified the rest. Was ok - got road clearance, reregistered, and served me well during national service and first semesters of Unversity afterwards. No issues - even with -22 C near Kassel .. was nicked rice bowl driver - but had quite often to help the Volkswagen and others to provide a kickstart - with Battery and cables. Had these in the boot - never used these for myself.
In the beginning - I found electronics quite unreliable. More often Water in plugs / oxidation isses, external such as Martens.
Looking back last 20 years - electronics in vehicles became quite reliable. All early complaints - ceased. When I remember my collaegues / friends when they tell about issues - its either - alternator, cooling or injectors and drivechain or turbo - they have issues with. Not electronics, not body.
The time of the old Mitsubishi - was rather the body that fell apart - Petrol engine and drivetrain were virtually unbreakable.
Coming Back to IG
Limited electronics- fine with me.
Body: Ineos did a lot of work to prevent rusting.
Everything else seems rock solid too.
Dont see much topics that could run into "unreliablity" there.

Automatic transmission - (okay - I like it, others may not, utilise automatic vehicles continuously since at least 25 years) Never missed the manual.
If somebody wants it manual - so what matter of personal taste. And I like the combination of diesel engine and Auto. - A diesel drops rpm quite fast when manually shifted gears (at least I felt it that way) hence auto transmission and diesel engine is just a perfect combination.

All other (gearshift look) is a matter of taste too. ( and thats a personal topic) see top.

Again - no electronic gadgets at all? - Discuss with regulatory bodies and "green" politics, control freaks and major influencing NGO (in Germany DUH )
In their opinion we should not be allowed to possess such a vehicle at all.

 

[emax]

Again - no electronic gadgets at all?

Not possible. But wasn't my point anyway.

My posting relates to the overall electronic penetration of almost any area in our life, and of course in cars in particular. Electronics (which is one of my hobbies btw.) is a very tempting technology and apparently it saves a lot of costs in production. Example: A TV with 'smart' buttons. One button can do ten things, depending on the respective context. Nice. But if that button fails, all ten functions will be gone.

Another thing are the designers. Many guis are implemented so bad, that without a manual one won't intuitively remeber how to use a device.

Or look at grandma: She once pressed a button for channel #1, a different one for channel #2 and so on. Hardly possible today with a few hundred channels, I know. But it shows the difference between an electronic way to do things or a (quasi) mechanical way to do the same: She now has to use an abstract interface, a remote control with may be two or more levels of operation on each button.

So it's not the electronics with is bad. But the "cost saving" implementation of the GUIs, the hardware (unreliable plugs, bad circuitry design and the like) and non-industrial overall hardware quality for devices which should in fact have exactly that: Industrial quality. Cars, for example.

And not to forget our biggest concern: Can I repair it at night on a country road or in a remote area.

I enjoy electronic helpers very much, for example, automatically dimming rearview mirrors. One of the things you only notice if they fail.

But it all comes, as usual, at a price.

 

[Disco Dave]

Personally, I really like the shifter - it is a part of the genetics of the IG. Just think of it as the perfect nose, on a awkward face.

 

[grenadierboy]

Personally, I really like the shifter - it is a part of the genetics of the IG. Just think of it as the perfect nose, on a awkward face.

Agree.

It's very easy to use, only need 2 fingers with a very light touch.

It feels functional & I think it looks modern.