A few thoughts about Ineos Automotive and the Grenadier

[Zimm]

As I understand the Scout has some Rivian DNA. Rivian has beat expectations. I have a Scout on order from day one and expect it to be great.

I hope you're right. It's progress, and VW did dump billions into Rivian. I think a Rivian is a great truck, and I almost bought one instead of this, but think that market has saturated, and the money isn't going to be recouped.

 

[Brock63]

Really? Have you ever driven a 70 series?
The V8 although sounds great is a thirsty inefficient gutless engine, the clutch is so weak it needs replacing as soon as you do any engine upgrades, the rear track is narrower than the front due to lazy engineering which makes it horrible to drive, it’s hopeless off road due to rear leaf hangers and shocker mounts being so close to the ground and very little suspension flex and the list goes on and on.
Don’t be fooled by Toyota worship and appearance

YEs, a right hand drive from Japan.....was actually similar to my 84 FJ60 in comfort and all....but liked the turbo diesel more than the 2FE in my 60. I like the 70 series... That being said....yes the Grenadier is more comfortable and comes with more from factory than the Land Cruiser mentioned. Not to say it isnt better...but that 70s series has always been an itch of mine....also knowing they all have their own quirks and shortcomings.....but until Grenadier there wasnt anything else new that was comparable in my opinion. I wasnt saying it was BETTER than Grenadier now that they are out.....I was just saying I might never have considered a Grenadier if I had a 70 series, LHD, turbo diesel and had built it up to meet my needs. Thats all. After owning and driving Grenadier....there is really little comparison...and amazes me guys are shitting on Grenadier as a 100% startup for a few hiccups that to me are inconsequential in big scheme of things.

 

[Brock63]

@Brock63 while reliability (real or perceived) might be a part of the enjoyment or lack, the odds of Ineos spinning this off is in one persons hands. My thinking is that is more likely to be a wild card for us and might be based on how Jimmy feels one morning: boredom, liability, financial performance… 2024, 2025 and if they aren’t already 26’s sitting on the lot is tough for dealers that had to pay for these cars.

Most of the ones sitting on lots I see are the basic versions....dealers ordered the basic version not realizing that their buyers for most part are not going to be the JEEP enthusiasts that doesnt know difference between open diffs, lockers, etc....that drives around town. There are those but not thinking they are buying a vehicle in this price range...nor are they buying the Jeep with 392 in it either. LOL Then you get the Fieldmaster group that wants the alloys and leather and little nicer look and feel....most of those dont care whether has open diffs or not but they tend to want a specific look. The offroad guys I think...are going to want Trialmaster or a Fieldmaster kitted up with full lockers, compass, heated seates, tow package..... I am not seeing a lot of Trialmasters of either variant sitting on lots...mostly those entry lower priced versions with open diffs and no extras. I know I wasnt interested in those no matter how much they discounted them.... I am hoping to find a Quartermaster on lot next year left over or a slightly used impulse buy that was sold back.....so I can get that and let someone else take over my modified Grenadier. LOL I like other peoples impulse buys and garage queens...LOL

 

[cyson]

If ARB came out with air lockers then those highly discounted basic versions would be pretty cool...

 

[Roach]

Most of the ones sitting on lots I see are the basic versions....dealers ordered the basic version not realizing that their buyers for most part are not going to be the JEEP enthusiasts that doesnt know difference between open diffs, lockers, etc....that drives around town. There are those but not thinking they are buying a vehicle in this price range...nor are they buying the Jeep with 392 in it either. LOL Then you get the Fieldmaster group that wants the alloys and leather and little nicer look and feel....most of those dont care whether has open diffs or not but they tend to want a specific look. The offroad guys I think...are going to want Trialmaster or a Fieldmaster kitted up with full lockers, compass, heated seates, tow package..... I am not seeing a lot of Trialmasters of either variant sitting on lots...mostly those entry lower priced versions with open diffs and no extras. I know I wasnt interested in those no matter how much they discounted them.... I am hoping to find a Quartermaster on lot next year left over or a slightly used impulse buy that was sold back.....so I can get that and let someone else take over my modified Grenadier. LOL I like other peoples impulse buys and garage queens...LOL

13 trialmasters in SoCal. Might be worth the flight out and drive home. First one I looked at has been on the lot over three months and discounted 9k. They might be willing to 15k.

 

[Brock63]

13 trialmasters in SoCal. Might be worth the flight out and drive home. First one I looked at has been on the lot over three months and discounted 9k. They might be willing to 15k.

YEah, not sure SoCal, NYC, Chicago, south Florida, Boston, etc....is market for Trialmaster. Get em while you can...hahaha I got mine for a steal last year as it was lightly used. I dont think mine was ever taken in dirt or in rain....all the heat shielding and undercoating was as clean as it would have been from factory and still all shiny. lol

 

[daftpike]

This very long post was prompted by a recent YouTube review video that once again compared a Trialmaster to a Jeep - something I find irritating, but not for the reasons you might imagine. This note touches on that comparison but also includes a few other thoughts I’ve had since my first and only post on Right to Repair. Again, I’m a happy Fieldmaster owner, but it’s becoming increasingly clear that I might have bought a very capable collector’s item - one that may be doomed to spend most of its time garaged due to the limitations of the company, not the vehicle. Unfortunately, the history of the automotive industry is filled with such cases.

Let’s begin with the truck. I bought the Grenadier because I’m of a certain age, and it is the new Land Rover Defender 110 that I always wanted. I know this isn’t an uncommon reason for purchasing it - and if you believe the origin story, it’s exactly why the truck exists. I wanted a vehicle with the heritage of trucks like the Defender, Jeep, and Hilux - the “Holy Trinity” of exploration-tested vehicles that played a key role in conquering the farthest corners of the world. This should be the Grenadier’s niche, but as it stands, it cannot fully claim that space. It is a bastard child, and it might always be treated as such.

Yes, I’m among those who believe Land Rover utterly failed with the new Defender. The SUV is nice and sells well, but it totally abandoned the heritage of the original in its new version. I don’t care what the marketing team says - it’s a Discovery. It’s an exceptionally capable mall crawler that sells to people who are never going to get it dirty - and they won’t feel bad about this fact. The majority of Grenadier drivers may not get their trucks dirty either, but they will feel guilty about it, mostly because the truck reminds them every time they drive it that it should be in the dirt. To be fair, I haven’t owned a new Defender. I once owned a pristine 1997 Defender 90. To my great shame, I traded it for a new Discovery II - and I’ve regretted it ever since. There is absolutely nothing about the new Defender that reminds me of my beloved Coniston Green D-90 with the V8 that roared (and leaked). The new Defender is a Disco at heart - and there is nothing wrong with this – other than the gap that it opened.

Which brings us to branding. I think Ineos is in an impossible spot. The truck can’t fill the niche it was designed for without a Land Rover badge. It isn’t as comfortable on-road as the new Defender, and when pushed, the new Defender is just as capable off-road. The difference is that the Grenadier is a tank - you could drive it through the rough stuff every day, something the new Defender couldn’t sustain. People who compare the Grenadier to a G-Wagon are delusional. Notwithstanding the cost, the G-Wagon is an engineering masterpiece (even if ugly), and let’s face it - the Grenadier is not. It isn’t even clearly better than a Jeep. Not because of capability, but because it’s simply much more expensive. Sure, some Jeeps are similarly priced, but that’s not the point. When you take a Jeep off-road and break it (which is totally normal), you can bring it home and fix it. The Grenadier is a much better truck, but if you take a Grenadier off-road and break it, you’re out of luck - no parts, no manual, no ability to fix it without a dealership. If you break a Grenadier today, your only option is to call a flatbed and tow it to a dealer that is hours away. What frustrates me is that there is no infrastructure being built to change this - and this turns the Grenadier’s exclusivity into a trap.

Aside from appealing to those who yearn for a new 110, the Grenadier sells because it’s the best-looking, best-appointed, heavy-duty utility vehicle on the planet. It sells because of its looks and the promise that it can conquer the world like the old Defender. Yes, it’s sometimes re-sold shortly after purchase because it actually IS a heavy-duty utility vehicle that happens to have nice seats. Its problem isn’t the heavy steering, the glitchy electronics, the leaks, or the flawed A/C. The problem is that Ineos cannot correctly position it in the market. There are a few steps that it can take. Stop comparing it to the new Defender in a confrontational way. Brand it as British, as much as you possibly can. Drop references to the rest of Europe (sorry, Europe). Advertise in places where this spirit of expedition still exists (even if only as a concept). Enable those who want to use it as an expedition vehicle to do so. This means you must cut the cord to the dealership. Sell parts online. Allow owners and small shops to repair it. If Ineos truly wants to succeed they’ll support every possible modification - including owner access to the non-critical software. If this doesn't happen, well, I’ll buy a car-cover to keep the dust off the truck as it sits in my garage waiting for auction - because there is no secondary market for a vehicle that can't be altered or repaired.

If I could change the current trajectory of the vehicle I’d suggest Tata Motors step in and insist Land Rover buy the entire company from Ineos. I’m sure that idea would be distasteful to some in the U.K., given the legal battle that brought the Grenadier to life - but this is about bottom line – and Rover needs another winner. I'm convinced that the Grenadier is a winner. I’d argue the value of the model would jump by 50% just by putting a green oval on the side - covering that tariff cost. All the issues current owners face would become “quirks” tied to Land Rover heritage - and people would chat knowingly about the issues, but trust the brand to eventually fix them. Sure, having both the new Defender and the old-school Grenadier at the same dealership might pose challenges - but I don’t care what any auto critic says, they are not competing for the same buyer. That becomes instantly clear after you’ve test-driven both, which is something that could easily happen at the dealership. With a Land Rover badge the Grenadier will be the last petrol-powered descendant of the British vehicle that once took explorers around the world - and there’s immense value in that for decades to come. Without this, well, I don’t know. Unless there is a great deal of effort by Ineos to release it from the walled garden in which it currently sits, I see some rough roads ahead.

Ugh there is and online manual which I have been looking through. You went full on delusional with Tata buying INEOS when they won't even built the Defender they have tooling for.