A few thoughts about Ineos Automotive and the Grenadier

[HereinDaRockies]

All of these big guns have a small Chinese problem. Western automotives are largely dead in the water unless they get their own marquee sorted into a new world.

I suspect buying into a niche with declining sales and negative margins maybe low on the agenda, but that's just my view.

Let's think about what @CRH said - you buy a car to get from here to there. One the gets you there with a smile on your face, you pay a bit more for. IA just need to instill the confidence of being able to do that on demand, keeping you dry and comfortable with good reliability.

Well I only say bmw because rumors are saying they are working on a g wagon fighter.

Otherwise, I have nothing else to go by

 

[Roach]

Maybe an opportunity for a US company to take on something that provides a bespoke brand they don’t have today. There is the Raptor but given the size of the market building the Gren in the US could dodge (no pun) some issues and bring back a new version of Power Wagon or Suburban

 

[Brock63]

The Grenadier has already met my exectations....which were not to get a fully modern, luxary vehicle...but rather to get a tough, reliable, focus driven offroad vehicle with enough manners to be comfortable as a daily driver. They have succeeded. Yes there are quirks and things that need to be refined but they have done and exceptional job. Think of how many recalls, TSBs, glitches, and failed parts hit manufacturers that have been around for a hundred years already!!!!! Lots of hypocrisy on the internet when it comes to people that find glee in identifying the minimal negatives and repeating it until those that are not educated believe they are the norm or majority when it comes to the Ineos Grenadier and Quartermaster. Makes me shake my head sometimes.... Some of you need to get a Land Cruiser from 50s, 60, 70, and even early 80s.....and really spend some time in them and find all the quirks and pains in the ass that come with the famed brand. LOL I have been there...done that.
I have said before...if Toyota had brought the 70 series to America in diesel or even petrol.....a Grenadier likely would never of been needed. That has and will never happen we are told....so the Grenadier/Quartermaster is my vehicle of choice. I dont want them to go under....I did not buy for investment......and those that did would be better off selling now and buying something else.

 

[MileHigh]

Actually, I think we’re quite lucky. Toyota pulled the real land cruiser, the new one really isn’t a competitor. If they had kept a V8 version one it would’ve been very tempting. The other is that Jeep completely crapped the bed with their new grand Wagoneers. I understand if you’re not going to make it a complete off-road beast, but they didn’t even really nail, the heritage styling.

I have no idea on the economics of the IG but the comments about Western automotive brands having problems right now I think is really relevant. The whole automotive market in the west is completely screwed. That Ineos is doing as well as they are is kind of amazing. My hope is that they just keep chugging along and the installed base gets to be big enough to support the vehicle. Plus, I think the calls for cheaper Grenadier‘s will be met by used ones, especially if they end up being as robust and long lived as we are hoping.

 

[Zimm]

If Ineos goes under, we don't have a collector, we have a novelty. It's an Edsel. A mint Edsel sells for exactly what it did new, after inflation, which makes a stupid 70 year investment. Which means, what we have, is a race to see who keeps driving theirs, and who's becomes a parts cars for unavailable body panels and pcb's and cpu's.

BMW, if entering the market, wants to compete with the G and high end RR's, This doesn't, can't, and already lost its hype. Would you people stop dreaming of BMW. Every large car company could have made this truck, IF THEY WANTED TO. They did not. Remeber, renault-volvo wasn't chomping at the bit to acquire de lorian just because they used their drive train.

If you NEED the 50g residual for your next car, keep in mind, by the time you know Ineos is done, it'll be too late, so consider selling. If not, it doesnt hurt ya to have the pie in the sky positive hopeful yet honest attitude of Dokatd, and be like him and go have fun. Just quit day dreaming about a bail out in this market.

 

[Roach]

@Brock63 while reliability (real or perceived) might be a part of the enjoyment or lack, the odds of Ineos spinning this off is in one persons hands. My thinking is that is more likely to be a wild card for us and might be based on how Jimmy feels one morning: boredom, liability, financial performance… 2024, 2025 and if they aren’t already 26’s sitting on the lot is tough for dealers that had to pay for these cars.

 

[[ Adam ]]

Every large car company could have made this truck, IF THEY WANTED TO. They did not.

According to JLR, they could not (and did not), that's how we ended up here.

 

[Zimm]

According to JLR, they could not (and did not), that's how we ended up here.

Could not make it and have it fit with their desired corporate image and marketing, and return the revenue needed for the investment, compared to what they ended up producing, is different than outright manufacturing ability, which they most certainly possess. Considering the sales delta between the hugely successful and technologically more advanced Defender and the Gren, perhaps they should have expounded a bit, and said "As management, we could not make an in kind live axle agrarian defender replacement, and maintain our fiduciary responsibility to our shareholders to turn a profit on the model." .... and with the situation at hand, most of that statement may unfortunately end up also applying to Ineos. I do hope not. I want to be able to buy body panels after I mash a tree.

I wonder how sales would have gone in the US, if they somehow did not permit undesirable lockerless trucks to glut the dealer lots from disingenuous pre orders. Those things are a boat anchor on sales.

 

[Dokatd]

I disagree that the Grenadier would fall under the Edsel catagory. I think it really more fits the NAS D110 Catagory a bit better. Remember the D110 was only available in 1993 here in the USA. The biggest difference is that support was never lost for the D110. The loss of support for the Gren would be very problematic, but hopefully if the powers that be decide to cancel this little experiment they will see it fit to release the software as open source. Or maybe Magna will step in for limited support. Regardless, people will eventually break the software themselves and solve any future issues. And quite frankly if the software is stable enough at the time of death then we dont have much to worry about outside diagnostic and clearing codes.

Body panels and hard parts will be easily solved by the aftermarket. Hell you can buy complete new aftermarket bodies for Defenders, Early Broncos and about any version of Jeep you prefer.

 

[MileHigh]

I disagree that the Grenadier would fall under the Edsel catagory. I think it really more fits the NAS D110 Catagory a bit better. Remember the D110 was only available in 1993 here in the USA. The biggest difference is that support was never lost for the D110. The loss of support for the Gren would be very problematic, but hopefully if the powers that be decide to cancel this little experiment they will see it fit to release the software as open source. Or maybe Magna will step in for limited support. Regardless, people will eventually break the software themselves and solve any future issues. And quite frankly if the software is stable enough at the time of death then we dont have much to worry about outside diagnostic and clearing codes.

Body panels and hard parts will be easily solved by the aftermarket. Hell you can buy complete new aftermarket bodies for Defenders, Early Broncos and about any version of Jeep you prefer.

I hope you are right, but those 110 and Broncos had a lot more delivered (global in the 110 case) than the Ineos?

This is my forever truck. We bought a place up in the mountains and it has a garage (only 7 feet though…) and this will ‘retire’ there with or without out me. I don’t care about dings and dents. Already got one ding, looking to bang it out and keep trucking. Already have off-road pinstripes.

This is the way.

 

[Zimm]

I disagree that the Grenadier would fall under the Edsel catagory. I think it really more fits the NAS D110 Catagory a bit better. Remember the D110 was only available in 1993 here in the USA. The biggest difference is that support was never lost for the D110. The loss of support for the Gren would be very problematic, but hopefully if the powers that be decide to cancel this little experiment they will see it fit to release the software as open source. Or maybe Magna will step in for limited support. Regardless, people will eventually break the software themselves and solve any future issues. And quite frankly if the software is stable enough at the time of death then we dont have much to worry about outside diagnostic and clearing codes.

Body panels and hard parts will be easily solved by the aftermarket. Hell you can buy complete new aftermarket bodies for Defenders, Early Broncos and about any version of Jeep you prefer.

volume. legacy. exclusivity. i had a 110nas and sold it mint. peak market was a decade ago when adjusted. this rig has no history, no volume, no aura and no exclusivity, and will not have anywhere near the support the defender has for lack of profit. its a curio, not a collector, never will be. Its a 2005 thunderbird, not a 1955 thunderbird. It'll be worth something to someone, but it's not a collector.

I,m not worried about the software, although, it HAS been a while and no one has bothered. It would be a real dick move to tank and not release anything. Printed circuit boards, and ECU's are what I'm concerned about, the softwares hardware is where lack of support can take its toll.

 

[cyson]

volume. legacy. exclusivity. i had a 110nas and sold it mint. peak market was a decade ago when adjusted. this rig has no history, no volume, no aura and no exclusivity, and will not have anywhere near the support the defender has for lack of profit. its a curio, not a collector, never will be. Its a 2005 thunderbird, not a 1955 thunderbird. It'll be worth something to someone, but it's not a collector.

I,m not worried about the software, although, it HAS been a while and no one has bothered. It would be a real dick move to tank and not release anything. Printed circuit boards, and ECU's are what I'm concerned about, the softwares hardware is where lack of support can take its toll.

Where there's money to be made, someone will pick up the pieces.

I'd hate to say it, but if I'd want any brand to pick up the pieces, it would be Land Rover. Just call it a Defender Classic or something. If a Wrangler and a Bronco can have such a big market, why can't Land Rover get a piece?