15% price increase? Bulls**t

[ChasingOurTrunks]

You keep harping on the point of "what promises?" but you are missing the point. If you were following the grenadier from the start from within the US, you'd see that product get rolled out internationally with price quotes, deposits, and guarantees that make the release in the US not only look like an afterthought, but at a potential price point that may make many of us say "screw it, that's too much much... I'm going to go ahead and commit to buying a different vehicle now."

Some kind of statement from ineos on expected US pricing (even if pegged to inflation rate) would be appreciated because it feels like we're being strung along. I suspect the kind of people interested in buying a grenadier are like me and keep their vehicles for 10+ years, hundreds of thousands of miles, and repair their vehicles themselves when humanly possibly. We're very loyal to brands and expect honesty and transparency.

I mean they kind of have made a statement though - “pricing for US customers will be announced later”.

They’ve got a lot of stuff to do before they’ll even know the final price. Their model was originally to do direct sales, but thanks to laws in the US written by dealership-paid lobbyists, they aren’t able to do that. So they have to find a dealer network and add their cut into the final price. They’ve got to sort out logistics. How much will it cost them to ship a boatload of cars to the USA? Depends on when they ship. A price quote from 3 months ago is no longer valid. And again - where are they shipping to? What dealers? Things have to happen in order.

That’s just two examples but the task list is long — they also have to get this thing tested by the NTSB to have a crash rating so insurance companies will back it. They have to figure out how their service and parts network will work, etc. It’s not unreasonable that they have yet to tell us a price, because they don’t know what it’ll be, because there’s stuff they need to figure out.

This has been their MO from the start though — they’ve been ridiculously transparent with this vehicle from day 1. Most manufacturers keep things quiet till they are ready to put the cars in the hands of customers — camouflage the design for testing, don’t even announce they are planning a new model till it’s in production, etc. Ineos has pulled back the curtain basically since that day in the Pub — including the contentious stuff where they’ve had to pivot, like abandoning the idea of building in Wales (which cost them a few customers who are nostalgic for the days of the sun never setting on their empire!). But they were up front about it, and that’s a very unusual approach for a car company to take.

The Grenadier is the graphene of the auto world — as soon as it was discovered, it lit up the media with promise of how it will do anything from enhance batteries to microchips. About the only thing it can’t do is leave the lab!

The difference between graphene and the Grenadier is what you’ve stated Mgo - there’s no one waiting to decide between graphene and copper, or whatever, to meet their needs. There are a lot of people who are wanting to decide between a Grenadier and the Jeep or 4Runner or f-150. I would suggest that those folks have to make a decision: wait and see, and accept the promises of what these rigs will be, and decide if it’s worth the money when we know, or just go buy something else. The Grenadier is not appropriate really for someone who needs a car now. It’s for people who want a car that is promised to do certain things, but can afford to wait and see. In 5 years, we’ll be in a different space because it’ll be available but right now it’s very experimental and in the “early adopter” stage.

There is no “something else” for me - the Gren does certain things no other new car available to me will do. For me it’s Graphene. There’s no viable alternative. So I will wait for it to “leave the lab”.

 

[Shaky]

I am hoping and banking on the fact that for those of us who do buy a Grenadier that Ineos, stand by their product and prove to us that they are loyal to their customers on both sides of the pond and get the trust back that they appear to have knocked with the US market.

There seems to be quality products used in nearly all areas of this vehicle, so as long as Ineos can join them all together successfully it should be a fantastic piece of kit.

 

[Deleted User Account.]

I mean they kind of have made a statement though - “pricing for US customers will be announced later”.

They’ve got a lot of stuff to do before they’ll even know the final price. Their model was originally to do direct sales, but thanks to laws in the US written by dealership-paid lobbyists, they aren’t able to do that. So they have to find a dealer network and add their cut into the final price. They’ve got to sort out logistics. How much will it cost them to ship a boatload of cars to the USA? Depends on when they ship. A price quote from 3 months ago is no longer valid. And again - where are they shipping to? What dealers? Things have to happen in order.

That’s just two examples but the task list is long — they also have to get this thing tested by the NTSB to have a crash rating so insurance companies will back it. They have to figure out how their service and parts network will work, etc. It’s not unreasonable that they have yet to tell us a price, because they don’t know what it’ll be, because there’s stuff they need to figure out.

This has been their MO from the start though — they’ve been ridiculously transparent with this vehicle from day 1. Most manufacturers keep things quiet till they are ready to put the cars in the hands of customers — camouflage the design for testing, don’t even announce they are planning a new model till it’s in production, etc. Ineos has pulled back the curtain basically since that day in the Pub — including the contentious stuff where they’ve had to pivot, like abandoning the idea of building in Wales (which cost them a few customers who are nostalgic for the days of the sun never setting on their empire!). But they were up front about it, and that’s a very unusual approach for a car company to take.

The Grenadier is the graphene of the auto world — as soon as it was discovered, it lit up the media with promise of how it will do anything from enhance batteries to microchips. About the only thing it can’t do is leave the lab!

The difference between graphene and the Grenadier is what you’ve stated Mgo - there’s no one waiting to decide between graphene and copper, or whatever, to meet their needs. There are a lot of people who are wanting to decide between a Grenadier and the Jeep or 4Runner or f-150. I would suggest that those folks have to make a decision: wait and see, and accept the promises of what these rigs will be, and decide if it’s worth the money when we know, or just go buy something else. The Grenadier is not appropriate really for someone who needs a car now. It’s for people who want a car that is promised to do certain things, but can afford to wait and see. In 5 years, we’ll be in a different space because it’ll be available but right now it’s very experimental and in the “early adopter” stage.

There is no “something else” for me - the Gren does certain things no other new car available to me will do. For me it’s Graphene. There’s no viable alternative. So I will wait for it to “leave the lab”.

Do we wait two years to buy a grenadier at what may be a hyper inflated price compared to what it's being sold for now or do we consider buying something like a g-wagon this year and avoid the extra $30,000 it's going to cost in two years when the grenadier is here?

That's the situation we're being put in. You know ineos has enough information to say what price it would need to be sold at today in the US based on barriers to entry and current costs of production to see a reasonable roi in a couple years. Dealer markups are irrelevant at this point. I'd appreciate it if they passed the info along now while they're actively selling vehicles in other markets.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I don’t think they’ve lost trust, Shaky. I’ve already mentioned in another thread but I may end up having to cancel my order for personal financial reasons, but barring that, I’m just as committed to buying one today as I was a few years ago.

This actually really does remind me of the “It’s gonna be built in Hambach not Wales” kerfuffle from a while ago. A lot of people got very mad about that and decided not to buy a Grenadier on that basis - they felt it was not what they were promised, and fair enough; the part of the Gren that appealed to them was to own a “british 4x4”. Their interests were less about the vehicle, and more about what that vehicle means to British Industry. But realistically — the Hambach plant was a brilliant move, and I really don’t care where it’s built as long as it’s good because my interests are not on it’s place of origin, but on what the vehicle is supposed to be able to do.

Comparably, some folks are now frustrated (and again, folks have every right to be so) because of the pricing conversations that are happening now (or more accurately, the lack of pricing info for US customers). Their interests are what MGO has said - they want a car now (Or soon), and they don’t want to wait an extra few months or a year to know how much the Grenadier is going to cost them, and that frustrates them because no one wants to go spend $80k on a Jeep Gladiator only to find that the Grenadier, which they like better, is going to cost them $90k a few months later. For those buyers, the Grenadier and the Gladiator are interchangeable, but I’d be afraid of committing to a vehicle I liked less with the Grenadier on the horizon (but exactly where on the horizon is unclear). And as the green muppet once said, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the dark side of simply not trusting the auto company anymore.

But for me - and like I’ve said previously, for about 24,999 according to Ineos’ pro forma — the Gladiator isn’t interchangeable with the Grenadier. If the grenadier is delayed by another 2 or 3 years on it’s NA release, it won’t matter to me - unless another vehicle meets my needs better in the meantime (and nothing appears on the horizon at this stage). Ineos hasn’t lost trust of the market, just some people who are in a certain position in the market, and if I were in their position, I’d feel the same way probably.

Do we wait two years to buy a grenadier at what may be a hyper inflated price compared to what it's being sold for now or do we consider buying something like a g-wagon this year and avoid the extra $30,000 it's going to cost in two years when the grenadier is here?

I mean…yes, if you need the capability the Grenadier can provide. If you can point me to another mid-sized vehicle with a 1-ton payload that I can spec with front and rear lockers from the factory, then no, I wouldn’t wait to buy a Gren in two years at what might be a hyper inflated price. But there isn’t one, so I’ll wait. (Edit - I should clarify, the G-Wagen over here does not have a 1-ton payload and seems to top out at less than a Jeep Wrangler, around a thousand pounds, so apart from the cheapest new one I can get being north of $140k CAD, it doesn’t do what the Grenadier does for my needs)

 

[rovie]

I understand the frustration.

But a product price depends on demand, supply and competition. So though I am not happy about the price increase, I'm not surprised about it. The higher prices can simply be asked in terms of those parameters. And as far as I understand, @FlyingTexan is not upset about the prices, but about Ineos, because from his point of view they broke their promises.

So I'm wondering: what promises? From what I've seen, they say existing orders will be delivered at the old prices, and I think they will.

But what other promises were made? That's a serious question, because I don't recall there being any statement about price guarantees before. I don't even see what prices in the US (and Canada, etc.) they could have guaranteed?

I have a feeling there is some wishful thinking involved, because a dream is often fuzzy and people (myself included) often tend to imagine things the way they would like to see them.

So were there really any price guarantees that I missed?

@emax , haven't you received a contract yet? It's about time.

 

[Deleted User Account.]

I don’t think they’ve lost trust, Shaky. I’ve already mentioned in another thread but I may end up having to cancel my order for personal financial reasons, but barring that, I’m just as committed to buying one today as I was a few years ago.

This actually really does remind me of the “It’s gonna be built in Hambach not Wales” kerfuffle from a while ago. A lot of people got very mad about that and decided not to buy a Grenadier on that basis - they felt it was not what they were promised, and fair enough; the part of the Gren that appealed to them was to own a “british 4x4”. Their interests were less about the vehicle, and more about what that vehicle means to British Industry. But realistically — the Hambach plant was a brilliant move, and I really don’t care where it’s built as long as it’s good because my interests are not on it’s place of origin, but on what the vehicle is supposed to be able to do.

Comparably, some folks are now frustrated (and again, folks have every right to be so) because of the pricing conversations that are happening now (or more accurately, the lack of pricing info for US customers). Their interests are what MGO has said - they want a car now (Or soon), and they don’t want to wait an extra few months or a year to know how much the Grenadier is going to cost them, and that frustrates them because no one wants to go spend $80k on a Jeep Gladiator only to find that the Grenadier, which they like better, is going to cost them $90k a few months later. For those buyers, the Grenadier and the Gladiator are interchangeable, but I’d be afraid of committing to a vehicle I liked less with the Grenadier on the horizon (but exactly where on the horizon is unclear). And as the green muppet once said, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the dark side of simply not trusting the auto company anymore.

But for me - and like I’ve said previously, for about 24,999 according to Ineos’ pro forma — the Gladiator isn’t interchangeable with the Grenadier. If the grenadier is delayed by another 2 or 3 years on it’s NA release, it won’t matter to me - unless another vehicle meets my needs better in the meantime (and nothing appears on the horizon at this stage). Ineos hasn’t lost trust of the market, just some people who are in a certain position in the market, and if I were in their position, I’d feel the same way probably.



I mean…yes, if you need the capability the Grenadier can provide. If you can point me to another mid-sized vehicle with a 1-ton payload that I can spec with front and rear lockers from the factory, then no, I wouldn’t wait to buy a Gren in two years at what might be a hyper inflated price. But there isn’t one, so I’ll wait. (Edit - I should clarify, the G-Wagen over here does not have a 1-ton payload and seems to top out at less than a Jeep Wrangler, around a thousand pounds, so apart from the cheapest new one I can get being north of $140k CAD, it doesn’t do what the Grenadier does for my needs)

The gwagon alternative may be the rivians, truck or suv obviously don't have locking differentials but with the quad motors being as strong as they are, they'd work as well independently as much as the gas variant of the ineos would here in the US. Payload is good.

 

[DaveB]

You keep harping on the point of "what promises?" but you are missing the point. If you were following the grenadier from the start from within the US, you'd see that product get rolled out internationally with price quotes, deposits, and guarantees that make the release in the US not only look like an afterthought, but at a potential price point that may make many of us say "screw it, that's too much... I'm going to go ahead and commit to buying a different vehicle now."

Some kind of statement from ineos on expected US pricing (even if pegged to inflation rate) would be appreciated because it feels like we're being strung along. I suspect the kind of people interested in buying a grenadier are like me and keep their vehicles for 10+ years, hundreds of thousands of miles, and repair their vehicles themselves when humanly possibly. We're very loyal to brands and expect honesty and transparency.

Release in the US isn't an after thought but possibly not as important to Ineos as other markets.
Australia is often not even thought about by car manufacturers, except for Toyota with their 4WD range, and now Ineos.
I think it is clear that the Grenadier has not been designed around the US market, either in design or commercial terms.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

The gwagon alternative may be the rivians, truck or suv obviously don't have locking differentials but with the quad motors being as strong as they are, they'd work as well independently as much as the gas variant of the ineos would here in the US. Payload is good.

Yeah except the charging infrastructure isn’t there yet worldwide. My use case is to take this rig around the world with my family (Crazy dream but life is short! And maybe that dream won’t come true; life is what happens when making other plans as they say, but I’m still hoping for it!). That’s why the “Global platform” and ICE combination is also important to me.

If I was just using it around North America, I would probably take a much more serious look at a Rivian — I love the slide-out kitchen!! — or even a diesel Gladiator with a camper on it if I wanted to stick with ICE; I know I could upgrade the Gladiator (or a wrangler for that matter) to handle the 1-ton easily enough, but every deviation from stock becomes a bit harder to fix once I get outside of my home turf, and I’m a bit nervous about when I’ll actually get to take this trip and what regulations will look like then In various jurisdictions - I’ve heard, for instance, that Costa Rica can be a bit of a headache with certain modifications today (not sure if it’s true or not, but it’s an example); what will that look like in 5-10 years? Will my Gladiator with aftermarket suspension be allowed in? Maybe. Maybe not. But my Grenadier that is the exact same as the Grenadier approved for sale in countries around the world should be OK. This is all a bit academic until I’ve got the funds saved up to do the trip of course, but I like to plan a head as a trip like this doesn’t happen on a whim!

 

[DaveB]

I mean they kind of have made a statement though - “pricing for US customers will be announced later”.

They’ve got a lot of stuff to do before they’ll even know the final price. Their model was originally to do direct sales, but thanks to laws in the US written by dealership-paid lobbyists, they aren’t able to do that. So they have to find a dealer network and add their cut into the final price. They’ve got to sort out logistics. How much will it cost them to ship a boatload of cars to the USA? Depends on when they ship. A price quote from 3 months ago is no longer valid. And again - where are they shipping to? What dealers? Things have to happen in order.

That’s just two examples but the task list is long — they also have to get this thing tested by the NTSB to have a crash rating so insurance companies will back it. They have to figure out how their service and parts network will work, etc. It’s not unreasonable that they have yet to tell us a price, because they don’t know what it’ll be, because there’s stuff they need to figure out.

This has been their MO from the start though — they’ve been ridiculously transparent with this vehicle from day 1. Most manufacturers keep things quiet till they are ready to put the cars in the hands of customers — camouflage the design for testing, don’t even announce they are planning a new model till it’s in production, etc. Ineos has pulled back the curtain basically since that day in the Pub — including the contentious stuff where they’ve had to pivot, like abandoning the idea of building in Wales (which cost them a few customers who are nostalgic for the days of the sun never setting on their empire!). But they were up front about it, and that’s a very unusual approach for a car company to take.

The Grenadier is the graphene of the auto world — as soon as it was discovered, it lit up the media with promise of how it will do anything from enhance batteries to microchips. About the only thing it can’t do is leave the lab!

The difference between graphene and the Grenadier is what you’ve stated Mgo - there’s no one waiting to decide between graphene and copper, or whatever, to meet their needs. There are a lot of people who are wanting to decide between a Grenadier and the Jeep or 4Runner or f-150. I would suggest that those folks have to make a decision: wait and see, and accept the promises of what these rigs will be, and decide if it’s worth the money when we know, or just go buy something else. The Grenadier is not appropriate really for someone who needs a car now. It’s for people who want a car that is promised to do certain things, but can afford to wait and see. In 5 years, we’ll be in a different space because it’ll be available but right now it’s very experimental and in the “early adopter” stage.

There is no “something else” for me - the Gren does certain things no other new car available to me will do. For me it’s Graphene. There’s no viable alternative. So I will wait for it to “leave the lab”.

Well thought out comment.
One of the big issues with launching in the US is that potential customers will compare it with the Jeep or the F150 as you say (I don't know the 4 runner sorry).
I don't think anyone in the other markets would seriously compare it equally to those vehicles, certainly not here in Australia.
They may be looked at as an alternative.
How do Ineos make the Grenadier competitive in the US?
They will have to cut the price considerably or de-engineer/spec it

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Release in the US isn't an after thought but possibly not as important to Ineos as other markets.
Australia is often not even thought about by car manufacturers, except for Toyota with their 4WD range, and now Ineos.
I think it is clear that the Grenadier has not been designed around the US market, either in design or commercial terms.

This is my perspective as well. And again — 25,000 worldwide. This rig isn’t even in the same ballpark as the Jeep that tends to sell 250,000 each year, or the Bronco that’s going to easily hit 100k in its second year of sales. Those are vehicles that are designed for the US mass market and they sell well. The grenadier does some of the same things as those vehicles, but it’s more akin to a 70-series Land Cruiser than a Jeep or a Bronco. And there are 70-series running around in Canada — except you’ll never see them on the road, because they are being used in underground mining. No other vehicle does what the 70-series does here in Canada, so the mining companies are importing them for private use. That’s whose going to buy 25,000 Grenadiers (and weirdos like me!).

Edit: @DaveB we were posting at the same time but essentially I agree with your latest post too, that’s exactly my perspective.

 

[emax]

@emax , haven't you received a contract yet? It's about time.

No, not yet.

But my dealership/agent told me, that they do it in batches. They have now sent out around 100 contracts in Germany, and the rest will follow gradually as they fall due.

 

[DaveB]

This is my perspective as well. And again — 25,000 worldwide. This rig isn’t even in the same ballpark as the Jeep that tends to sell 250,000 each year, or the Bronco that’s going to easily hit 100k in its second year of sales. Those are vehicles that are designed for the US mass market and they sell well. The grenadier does some of the same things as those vehicles, but it’s more akin to a 70-series Land Cruiser than a Jeep or a Bronco. And there are 70-series running around in Canada — except you’ll never see them on the road, because they are being used in underground mining. No other vehicle does what the 70-series does here in Canada, so the mining companies are importing them for private use. That’s whose going to buy 25,000 Grenadiers (and weirdos like me!).

Edit: @DaveB we were posting at the same time but essentially I agree with your latest post too, that’s exactly my perspective.

Yeah.
Keep in mind though that Jeep seem to be a bit loose with the truth.
Even here in Australia they advertise the Jeep Wrangler as the number one selling 4WD in the world.
They neglect to mention 95%++ of those sales are in the US
Total sales of Jeep in Australia is less than 8,000 units and only 1,200 of those are Wranglers.
It looks highly likely that Ineos will sell more Grenadiers in Australia in 2023 than Jeep sell Wranglers.
Despite the Wrangler being 20-30% cheaper.
Australia's top selling vehicles are dual cab utes (pickups), yet the Jeep Gladiator has been a dismal failure.
I think the Ineos ute in will be a huge success in Australia and probably outsell the station wagon.
Particularly in a cab chassis version.

 

[Tazzieman]

Being a long time Benz fanboy (who also owns a couple of old Land Rovers!) , I would have loved a G wagen (base spec).
But I would have to sell my house and remaining two kidneys to be able to afford one in Australia.
Other than that , nothing else out there ticks enough boxes for my long term vehicular aspirations.
So I shoved my pile of chips towards the Grenadier. Let's call it an educated gamble.

 

[DaveB]

Being a long time Benz fanboy (who also owns a couple of old Land Rovers!) , I would have loved a G wagen (base spec).
But I would have to sell my house and remaining two kidneys to be able to afford one in Australia.
Other than that , nothing else out there ticks enough boxes for my long term vehicular aspirations.
So I shoved my pile of chips towards the Grenadier. Let's call it an educated gamble.

I was going to buy a Mercedes GLE Coupe as the G Wagon is only sold in AMG spec and has now hit $600K second hand.
Sadly the GLE Coupe is now $275K second hand.
Neither are available new from MB anymore.
As it turns out this is a win for me as it made me look to the Grenadier.

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2022-mercedes-benz-g-class-g63-amg-auto-4matic/SSE-AD-12823407/?Cr=0

 

[painter]

Do we wait two years to buy a grenadier at what may be a hyper inflated price compared to what it's being sold for now or do we consider buying something like a g-wagon this year and avoid the extra $30,000 it's going to cost in two years when the grenadier is here?

Yes, the waiting ...
I can't remember when I first was turned onto the Gren. Certainly I was waiting for the opening day of reservations for Canada.

But let's go back to mid 2020 when the chatter was pricing ~50 k USD, call it low 50s , and initial deliveries in 2021. Where that US pricing originated I can't quote. But dollars to donuts when IG was marketing that question would have been asked, and some indication given.

Okay, so folks liked what they saw and waited for developments. Some put their money down when they could.

Now, true, no official US pricing has been announced, ergo no "increase". Zing ! But I think we can nuance that to "anticipated price". We currently don't know, except that it looks likely to be a lot higher than back in those promo days.

Sure, "everything has gone up", but price matters for at least three reasons.
1) afforbability
2) value for money
3) expectation

I won't opine on 1&2 but just know some will be disappointed by 3. And straight up, some will feel played. Waiting, only to be disappointed is for the young.

As for the importance of the US market. I could totally see Ratcliffe saying, stuff them. He won't, but I could see it. He's British, not American. He's a rich man living in Monaco, who needs more ?

The Americans, through there own efforts, have there own auto industry. They don't have to buy foreign - though many do.

Understood the IG was never going to be a "people's" car, a model T or WV Beatle. Indeed my "concern" (for lack of a better word) on the Gren has always been that it would go the way of the G wagon price wise. My thinking that like other new products or startups there will be a window of relative affordability before inevitable upscale movement with pricing to match.

However it plays out, it's not life and death. It's a cool car that I'd like to own. If I don't, l don't, it's not the only for me. Still survive.

I doubt I'm the only one in 25,000 that feels that way. And I don't doubt IA knows it.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Yeah.
Keep in mind though that Jeep seem to be a bit loose with the truth.
Even here in Australia they advertise the Jeep Wrangler as the number one selling 4WD in the world.
They neglect to mention 95%++ of those sales are in the US
Total sales of Jeep in Australia is less than 8,000 units and only 1,200 of those are Wranglers.
It looks highly likely that Ineos will sell more Grenadiers in Australia in 2023 than Jeep sell Wranglers.
Despite the Wrangler being 20-30% cheaper.
Australia's top selling vehicles are dual cab utes (pickups), yet the Jeep Gladiator has been a dismal failure.
I think the Ineos ute in will be a huge success in Australia and probably outsell the station wagon.
Particularly in a cab chassis version.

I see Jeeps as robust toys — I love them, and they are fantastic Off Road, and make for a pretty good touring platform in some ways (but terrible in others) and they are more akin to a Four-Wheeler (aka Quad) or side-by-side than they are to the commercial—spec 70 series. I think you are spot on with that assessment of sales numbers. I think what folks like me actually want is a modernized 70-series, but Toyota has decided not to modernize, and the only competition was discontinued in 2016 and replaced by another robust toy That’s more akin to a four-wheeler (aka quad) or side-by-side with more microchips that you can also use to get groceries

I was going to buy a Mercedes GLE Coupe as the G Wagon is only sold in AMG spec and has now hit $600K second hand.
Sadly the GLE Coupe is now $275K second hand.
Neither are available new from MB anymore.
As it turns out this is a win for me as it made me look to the Grenadier.

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2022-mercedes-benz-g-class-g63-amg-auto-4matic/SSE-AD-12823407/?Cr=0

Oof. Thact’s a lot of gas money for the sake of a car.

Understood the IG was never going to be a "people's" car, a model T or WV Beatle. Indeed my "concern" (for lack of a better word) on the Gren has always been that it would go the way of the G wagon price wise. My thinking that like other new products or startups there will be a window of relative affordability before inevitable upscale movement with pricing to match.

Well said for your whole post, Painter. On this score in particular - if the Gren does go the way of the G-Wagen, they’ll have failed with the original mission. The folks clearing land-mines in Angola or delivering mosquito nets to the middle of the Congo could buy a G-wagon today, but it’s too expensive and so they nurse along their 10+ year old Defenders with no real alternative in sight.

 

[Krabby]

There’s a lot to digest in this thread and I can greatly appreciate most of it.

A 15% jump in anything is pretty substantial and had the US price been $60k it would jump $69K. Still a fair price for a vehicle as capable as the IG should be. My fear is that somehow that $69K becomes $85 or $90k.

It’s been mentioned throughout a number of threads that in the States we struggle with a dealership arrangement that is both antiquated and unscrupulous. I mostly slept through my Econ class but the gist of supply and demand is simple enough, and when the Gren arrives the balance will most certainly be in the dealers’ hands. The asshole Ford dealership around the corner has been “market adjusting” Raptors, Broncos, and Mavericks (little pickup truck) as much as $20,000 OVER MSRP. I can see the same happening to Grenadiers and if I’m honest, it’s probably going to be worse - that’s what will drive me away. The manufacturers themselves are all but powerless because of how things are set up and so the dealers just keep pocketing more and more. It’s so aggravating.

The reality in the States could be very dependent upon who Ineos partners with for their dealerships. I fear the plan will be to attach themselves with premium brands and this will instantly elevate prices and, maybe even more frustrating, make the truck a status symbol. That combination will price me out and I imagine lots of us who have been tuned into the Grenadier from day one.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Agreed, @Krabby. On the topic of trusting IA, I think how they use their leverage to ensure that those of us who have been on board since day 1 (i.e. reservation holders) are given a fair shake and avoid that dealer scalping you’re talking about is going to be an important litmus test. And the reality is, while Ford has been threatening to punish dealers who are engaging in this anti-consumer, predatory pricing, Ineos won’t have even close to that level of power over their dealer network. Ineos needs the dealers more than the Dealers need Ineos, and that puts them in a sticky spot.

I don’t personally get a “status symbol” vibe from IA; thats not to say it won’t become that depending on how the NA rollout goes.

I often wonder if Ineos would be able to open a showroom in LA, New York, Chicago, and say Denver — the big Hubs — and invite prospective customers to come to them to do a “buy, fly, and drive”, and have a bit of a Roadshow-model for test drives that does circuits around the country. A flight to one of these cities from almost anywhere in the USA is only a couple hundred bucks, which is a pretty small bite on a $60k+ purchase. That would let them shrug off the dependency on existing dealer networks and keep the ball in their court. They don’t need the dealers for service - Bosch has that covered for them (And I saw my first sign for a Bosch-certified shop in Nanaimo just a few weeks ago, so I got all excited!).

There may be state-by-state rules that prevent this though.

 

[DaveB]

Agreed, @Krabby. On the topic of trusting IA, I think how they use their leverage to ensure that those of us who have been on board since day 1 (i.e. reservation holders) are given a fair shake and avoid that dealer scalping you’re talking about is going to be an important litmus test. And the reality is, while Ford has been threatening to punish dealers who are engaging in this anti-consumer, predatory pricing, Ineos won’t have even close to that level of power over their dealer network. Ineos needs the dealers more than the Dealers need Ineos, and that puts them in a sticky spot.

I don’t personally get a “status symbol” vibe from IA; thats not to say it won’t become that depending on how the NA rollout goes.

I often wonder if Ineos would be able to open a showroom in LA, New York, Chicago, and say Denver — the big Hubs — and invite prospective customers to come to them to do a “buy, fly, and drive”, and have a bit of a Roadshow-model for test drives that does circuits around the country. A flight to one of these cities from almost anywhere in the USA is only a couple hundred bucks, which is a pretty small bite on a $60k+ purchase. That would let them shrug off the dependency on existing dealer networks and keep the ball in their court. They don’t need the dealers for service - Bosch has that covered for them (And I saw my first sign for a Bosch-certified shop in Nanaimo just a few weeks ago, so I got all excited!).

There may be state-by-state rules that prevent this though.

Keep in mind also that Ineos will only be looking to sell around 5,000 units in the US maybe increasing to 10,000 at most.
Unless they decide to buy/build a factory over there.
If they do that then they will be able to sell the dual cab ute/pickup in the US and that would make it a lot more attractive to them .
I wonder if there are any buildings for sale down near Spartanburg.
Be a good source for the engines and gearboxes

 

[painter]

If the dealer does a market adjustment on an order I'd be out for sure. (If I wasn't legally bound).

Not sure if that has been happening with Ford and co if it is a factory order. I wouldn't expect so and could see the mfr outlawing that esp if starting new.

Dealer stock otoh - if that ever happens - could be price adjusted. Supply and demand etc.

I'll be ordering, same as my last few vehicles, and would endeavour to put price protection in the contract.

Different country though, so who knows.