You now can’t use the Smartpass consumer output

[bakepl]

I would agree with that.

Dealers are already seeing some "unusual" wiring set ups. At least one is urging owners to use auto-electricians the owner trusts.

Without wiring diagrams and with Ineos disabling of the Smartpass 'consumer out' without explanation, I'm tending to think the Ineos has an 'unusual' wiring set up. I'm not saying this is bad but imagine you've purchased an Ineos without the second battery and want to add a second battery and Smartpass. You would connect the Smartpass exactly as specified by Ctek which includes the wire to indicate a smart alternator and you would likely use the tech of the Smartpass consumer out that prevents over discharge - am I missing something here? So the question still remains unanswered by Ineos, why is it so critical to disable this function?

 

[NQ94]

Without wiring diagrams and with Ineos disabling of the Smartpass 'consumer out' without explanation, I'm tending to think the Ineos has an 'unusual' wiring set up. I'm not saying this is bad but imagine you've purchased an Ineos without the second battery and want to add a second battery and Smartpass. You would connect the Smartpass exactly as specified by Ctek which includes the wire to indicate a smart alternator and you would likely use the tech of the Smartpass consumer out that prevents over discharge - am I missing something here? So the question still remains unanswered by Ineos, why is it so critical to disable this function?

It would be interesting to know if the wiring is fully based on BMW architecture. Consulting BMW ISO wiring diagrams may give some basic information that can then be compared to the wiring in a Grenadier. The Grenadier dual battery set up could possibly be very similar to BMW emergency vehicle specifications.

 

[255/85]

I haven't read through this thread but I thought it wise to make this link available.

SMARTPASS Product Safety Notice

 

[TheDocAUS]

Without wiring diagrams and with Ineos disabling of the Smartpass 'consumer out' without explanation, I'm tending to think the Ineos has an 'unusual' wiring set up. I'm not saying this is bad but imagine you've purchased an Ineos without the second battery and want to add a second battery and Smartpass. You would connect the Smartpass exactly as specified by Ctek which includes the wire to indicate a smart alternator and you would likely use the tech of the Smartpass consumer out that prevents over discharge - am I missing something here? So the question still remains unanswered by Ineos, why is it so critical to disable this function?

Read both the Supplementary INEOS Manual and the CTEK warning released on 30 Nov 2023 and you get some idea of what is going on -basically what Andrew posted. Add in "unusual" wiring and INEOS feels the need to protect itself.

 

[TheDocAUS]

Does "Unusual" wiring translate into to poor auto electrical work done by accessory shops and DIYers that lack knowledge, installs done on the cheap and ultimately these people should be kept away from tools?

That is how I treated the comments, they were concerned (rightly so).

 

[AnD3rew]

So with the information on this page, would any of you who have experience with such matters and the Grenadier's wiring setup (@TheDocAUS @AnD3rew ) say that it's safe or I'd be OK to have a stereo shop attach the amplifier main lead wire ( I think the amplifier, an Orion HCCA 250G4, is fused at 2x40A) to one of the terminals in the Fittlefuse busbar, appropriate to that draw? I'm trying to determine the safest way to attach my accessories - so far, a subwoofer amplifier, a Midland MTX575 radio (50Watt), and a backup camera (whatever it was everyone recommended, I bought one).

I’m really not competant enough to feel comfortable answering that question, my gut feel is that attaching to the Littelfuse busbar should be entirely safe as long as the fuse ratings are appropriate for the draw of your accessories. But really not an expert on auto electrics

 

[TheDocAUS]

I’m really not competant enough to feel comfortable answering that question, my gut feel is that attaching to the Littelfuse busbar should be entirely safe as long as the fuse ratings are appropriate for the draw of your accessories. But really not an expert on auto electrics

Also make sure the the total load of all the accessories on the busbar does not exceed its rating - found ...

DETAILED INSTRUCTION MANUAL FROM LITTELFUSE ON THE FHZ
Littelfuse Manuals can be found here, here and especially here. The third link is to the very informative instruction sheet. Look at point 2 on page 2.

More information on the FHZ busbar here.

 

[Znarfgh]

So with the information on this page, would any of you who have experience with such matters and the Grenadier's wiring setup (@TheDocAUS @AnD3rew ) say that it's safe or I'd be OK to have a stereo shop attach the amplifier main lead wire ( I think the amplifier, an Orion HCCA 250G4, is fused at 2x40A) to one of the terminals in the Fittlefuse busbar, appropriate to that draw? I'm trying to determine the safest way to attach my accessories - so far, a subwoofer amplifier, a Midland MTX575 radio (50Watt), and a backup camera (whatever it was everyone recommended, I bought one).

So, ask yourself the question: if you only had one battery where would you connect the powered subwoofer? From what we know, the second battery is there to support the starter battery and most things appear to be connected to the main battery. I'm not messing with the battery setup in order to not compromise my warranty. All my add-ons are that I don't want switched are connected to a third Lithium battery in a battery box with a DC-DC charger. Things like a UHF radio and some other items are connected to the Ineos supplied power outlets where I don't care that they are ignition switched.

I also carry a Lithium jump starter in case of both batteries being unable to start the vehicle.

 

[bakepl]

I haven't read through this thread but I thought it wise to make this link available.

SMARTPASS Product Safety Notice

Now that's great factual info thanks. Other than the safe handling/connecting instructions the biggest take from this that I can see is that they have reduced the consumer output from 80amps to 50amps which in itself is significant. Begs to wonder how they would be able to track down all owners of this product who have installed this device using the then available 80amp output?

 

[Logsplitter]

Now that's great factual info thanks. Other than the safe handling/connecting instructions the biggest take from this that I can see is that they have reduced the consumer output from 80amps to 50amps which in itself is significant. Begs to wonder how they would be able to track down all owners of this product who have installed this device using the then available 80amp output?

I had my smartpass blanked off when my vehicle was in the Ineos, Maun, Botswana dealership for other works. At the time any campaigns for checks and additions were all carried out apart from the software update. I had my fridge connected to the smartpass consumer output. It is now connected directly to the main battery. Everything was working fine as was and still all working fine since in 40c heat with fridge set at 0c

 

[TD5-90]

Now that's great factual info thanks. Other than the safe handling/connecting instructions the biggest take from this that I can see is that they have reduced the consumer output from 80amps to 50amps which in itself is significant. Begs to wonder how they would be able to track down all owners of this product who have installed this device using the then available 80amp output?

To me even more significant is that they now demand that you mount the units on a "non-combustible" surface. That gives an indication that eventually the plastic case can melt/burn, and therefore they supply a free metal mounting plate on request...

A proper change notice would have highlighted the changes to the document rather than hiding them and solely demand the customer to read carefully. To me this is another non-satisfying experience with CTEK. I had some technical discussion with CTEK support regarding the suitability of the 120s for a Li service battery (should be suitable according to the manual), but I don't think it is since charging current to the Li battery is not limited. Also the additional 250 cannot solve this. At the end of the discussion the CTEK man recommended to kick out the 120s and install 2 250s when using a Li service battery...

Maybe I'm a bit biased since I'm doing power electronics design professionally for >30 years now. As a former owner of a >600EUR MXTS40, which went defective shortly after the warranty period (under occasional use only), the only thing CTEK offered was a ridiculously priced repair. I disassembled the unit and found that the electronics assembly was indeed not designed for repair and would have to be replaced completely: A bunch of pcbs glued together and all covered with resin. My guessing is that they source this assembly from China at under 30 EUR.

Don't get me wrong: Every company has to make profit. They have some credits for being one of the first to make chargers with decent charging algorithms available for a broader public. But from an actual design and product quality perspective I think CTEK is _way_ overrated. My opinion, may be wrong.

 

[255/85]

Other than the safe handling/connecting instructions the biggest take from this that I can see is that they have reduced the consumer output from 80amps to 50amps which in itself is significant.

That is a substantial drop in output. It does appear that the CTEK unit is unsuited to duties beyond managing the back-up starting battery and running a few lights, etc.

 

[AnD3rew]

That is a substantial drop in output. It does appear that the CTEK unit is unsuited to duties beyond managing the back-up starting battery and running a few lights, etc.

The Smartpass is really just a battery isolator with a few extra features, 50a on the consumer output is fine for most fridges which is the main thing most people would use it for, it was never meant for more than that. Adding the D250SE makes it more of a full DC/DC system. Nevertheless INEOS still runs things differently. You can either choose to give in to the INEOS philosophy and just go with it and use the main battery as the source for everything and the second battery as the backup or rewire it all and go with a more traditional setup. As I have thought about it more, using a mix of the philosophies is probably a bad idea as you could end up with two flat batteries. Currently thinking that I will try the INEOS way for a bit and just go with it. Since disconnecting from the Smartpass I have had my fridge connected directly to the second battery but I think I may either connect to main battery or to the littelfuse block and see how it goes. The main downside to losing the Smartpass consumer output is that it has a cutoff to protect the battery if it goes too low and losing that means there is no built in protection.

 

[255/85]

Since disconnecting from the Smartpass I have had my fridge connected directly to the second battery but I think I may either connect to main battery or to the littelfuse block and see how it goes. The main downside to losing the Smartpass consumer output is that it has a cutoff to protect the battery if it goes too low and losing that means there is no built in protection.

Agreed. With the consumer connection disabled, the Smartpass 120S appears to me as nothing more than a fancy way to have a single main battery with a reserve for cranking.

@Logsplitter has gone to the primary battery for his fridge connection. I don't know if this is the better option. If you connect the consumers to the primary, then the secondary battery is pulse charging the primary to keep voltages up until it's also down to a minimum/single start capacity. And then you'd continue to drain the primary. I'd think most folks here know they've got to stay on top of their system and would shut things down well ahead of that point (plus most modern fridges have their own low voltage protections). Get careless and, yes, in theory you'd still be able to start the vehicle the next day - but just barely.

Connecting the fridge directly to the second battery could allow inadvertent draining of the backup but we have the built in appliance protections preventing that. But mistakes happen and it's really all the other stuff that concerns me. Like dozing off with the electric blanket going or watching a long movie, etc.

I'm old fashioned and have only ever run mechanically isolated batteries which has allowed me to be a bit cavalier with draining the house battery. Even though I have a Smartpass 120S with the consumer output still functional waiting in the wings, for safety and to help avoid warranty issues, my question is: Using the CTEK system as Ineos has now given it to us (no consumer output) which battery would I want to err with?

 

[Logsplitter]

The Smartpass is really just a battery isolator with a few extra features, 50a on the consumer output is fine for most fridges which is the main thing most people would use it for, it was never meant for more than that. Adding the D250SE makes it more of a full DC/DC system. Nevertheless INEOS still runs things differently. You can either choose to give in to the INEOS philosophy and just go with it and use the main battery as the source for everything and the second battery as the backup or rewire it all and go with a more traditional setup. As I have thought about it more, using a mix of the philosophies is probably a bad idea as you could end up with two flat batteries. Currently thinking that I will try the INEOS way for a bit and just go with it. Since disconnecting from the Smartpass I have had my fridge connected directly to the second battery but I think I may either connect to main battery or to the littelfuse block and see how it goes. The main downside to losing the Smartpass consumer output is that it has a cutoff to protect the battery if it goes too low and losing that means there is no built in protection.

Agreed. I’m keeping my wiring as Ineos designed it. My fridge now connected to the main battery instead of the smartpass and all good in very hot conditions so far . I do have a smart charger permanently wired in so that if I get to a camp site with mains power I just plug a lead in and charge/condition the batteries. If I’m off grid and not moving the vehicle for two or three days I use 2 x 100w solar panels also to help trickle charge the batteries

 

[255/85]

I think I have just restated @AnD3rew 's thoughts so that I had a better picture of the ramifications. That's what I get for staying up so late.


Thanks for the response.

 

[255/85]

If I’m off grid and not moving the vehicle for two or three days I use 2 x 100w solar panels also to help trickle charge the batteries

Am I remembering correctly; that you connect your panels directly to the jump start points under the hood?

 

[Logsplitter]

Am I remembering correctly; that you connect your panels directly to the jump start points under the hood?

Yes and works fine

 

[globalgregors]

Yes and works fine

I connect mine directly to the auxiliary battery, this also seems to work.

 

[Logsplitter]

I connect mine directly to the auxiliary battery, this also seems to work.

Great news. At some point I want to run a lead and connection point from the battery compartment to a connection point on the outside of the vehicle that I can just plug in to, this will save me having to open the bonnet to connect. Have you done something like this and if so you you send a picture for ideas.