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Where is IA in five years? What do you think?

DCPU

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What I meant is, that they do not grow small companies up to large companies by inventing things, having clever strategies, etc. Of course they generate growth, but that relies mainly on existing structures and processes which where invented by the previous owners.
Not true if you look at the number of patent filings in recent years.

Then look at the Dragon ships ~ could almost be the perfect casestudy for a clever strategy.

And not forgetting hydrogen, where Ineos are investing huge sums in new technology.

In other words they take over more or less successful companies
It's usually quite the opposite they take over failing, neglected or orphaned businesses, usually paying cents on the dollar for them.

You seem so focused on creating your own narrative that actual facts are ignored.
 
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Tesla was hyped as an entrepreneur and pioneer in a future market which is total in line with the spirit of the time. That is the wave Tesla rides on. Ineos tries to keep a dinosaur type of car alive. That's where I see the difference.

AWo
To me the big difference is Teslas are daily drivers for anyone.
Me, you, our grandma and our children can drive them around comfortably. As a driver, all tech and price aside, you can drive them everyday and I guess short of it bursting into flames are relatively reliable.
The Grenadier is not an appealing driver to our grandmas, to some of our wives, and some of our children.
I think Ineos will be best as either a boutique manufacturer or they will have to radically change up their product line to offer a more "appeal to the masses" vehicles.
 

DCPU

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I think Ineos will be best as either a boutique manufacturer or they will have to radically change up their product line to offer a more "appeal to the masses" vehicles.
Things might change, or fact nearly always do, but the original intention of the project was not to appeal to the masses, but a narrow focused, niche market, they had identified as being vacant. The relatively low numbers of vehicles this market represented was factored into all the commercial decisions. If they did their sums right, then any talk about growth and where they "need" to go is just missing the entire point.
 

AWo

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The relatively low numbers of vehicles this market represented was factored into all the commercial decisions. If they did their sums right, then any talk about growth and where they "need" to go is just missing the entire point.
But then they did it very late. In the beginning it should cost soemwhat more than a Hilux, the price was planned with a 3 as the first digit.

AWo
 
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Things might change, or fact nearly always do, but the original intention of the project was not to appeal to the masses, but a narrow focused, niche market, they had identified as being vacant. The relatively low numbers of vehicles this market represented was factored into all the commercial decisions. If they did their sums right, then any talk about growth and where they "need" to go is just missing the entire point.
I agree, Im mostly commenting on posts saying that Ineos will make this large number of vehicles, and stuff like that....
 

Jean Mercier

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But then they did it very late. In the beginning it should cost soemwhat more than a Hilux, the price was planned with a 3 as the first digit.

AWo
3 would have been perfect, but, how many cars do you get for "3" in 2023? Still a Hilux? I am sure not here in Europe!
In the 6 years (something like that, you know better @AWo) things have changed a lot.
Quite more regulation (EU and other), quite some inflation, wars, prime materials rises, and so on ...
To be honest, 7 (or about 7) is a lot.
5 would have been my wish!
But OK, I wanted such a car, therefore - and because I am lucky to have the means without being outrageous rich - I bought it.
 
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Again, no offense meant to our US brethren, but just giving you an Australian context in terms of what vehicles we have received from the US market, and it hasn’t been flattering to you.

Absolutely no offense taken by this American. I’ve never understood the American auto industry; particularly since about 1971.
No offense taken here either; I've bought European or Japanese for ~30 years.
 

DCPU

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But then they did it very late. In the beginning it should cost soemwhat more than a Hilux, the price was planned with a 3 as the first digit.

AWo
I'd have to dig the info out off a different pc, but my recollection is the very first figure in the UK was £45k.
 

DaveB

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Earliest pricing I could find in Australia said around AUD$80K which would have been about 50,000 euro or USD$55K
However back in those days it still had luxury car tax plus all onroads to go on it.
My configuration came to AUD$133K but once they had the luxury car tax removed the same vehicle ended up costing me AUD121K
Current pricing would put it back over AUD$134K

1686690820568.png
 
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cheswick

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Earliest pricing I could find in Australia said around AUD$80K which would have been about 50,000 euro or USD$55K
However back in those days it still had luxury car tax plus all onroads to go on it.
My configuration came to AUD$133K but once they had the luxury car tax removed the same vehicle ended up costing me AUD121K
Current pricing would put it back over AUD$134K

View attachment 7816360
The approx 80k estimate given early for AUD pricing was not including GST, LCT etc
 

AWo

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AWo

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I'd have to dig the info out off a different pc, but my recollection is the very first figure in the UK was £45k.
I'm not talking about released prices, but about desired prices in the beginning. There were a lot speculations in the media, but the first official price in Germany was 59k for the utility. I wrote about it on 10-18-2022 when the first IG was produced. I mentioned there, that the desired price originally was near the 50k. I was told about that by IA guys when I got the two IG in my garage in 12/2021. A few weeks later they added around 5k.

AWo
 

DaveB

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Starts with 34.769 Euros without discount.



That`s where I expected the IG, too.

AWo
Why would you expect high specification, low volume, station wagon to start at the same as a mass market entry level dual cab ute?
I can see why you would hope it did but it wouldn't be [possible or necessary.
 

Max

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Set me wondering, if the sale of Man Utd to Ineos goes thru - will the market open up to soccer mums and football WAGS (for @Jean Mercier only, football term, WAGS is "wives and girlfriends)
There could be a new thread...Name the "Mistress range"...where do we start...Unitedmistress ;)
 

Loc Nar

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I'm not talking about released prices, but about desired prices in the beginning. There were a lot speculations in the media, but the first official price in Germany was 59k for the utility. I wrote about it on 10-18-2022 when the first IG was produced. I mentioned there, that the desired price originally was near the 50k. I was told about that by IA guys when I got the two IG in my garage in 12/2021. A few weeks later they added around 5k.

AWo
This is a fair point. There's no getting around the fact that Ineos set expectations on the low side and could not (or would not) follow through. Example:

Despite the premium powertrain, Ineos says the Grenadier won't have a very premium price. Land Rover's new Defender will start around $50,000 when it arrives in showrooms shortly, but the Grenadier is hoped to cost closer to the Jeep Wrangler's roughly $30,000 base price when it arrives in 2021. Production will be near Ford's soon-to-be-shuttered Bridgend engine plant in Wales.

7/2/20 Motortrend Article
 

DaveB

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IMO it’ll come down to cash. Ineos have spent a great deal of money to date which will only be recouped big scale from chassis profit.
Ineos haven’t grown to success by wasting money, they’ll want a payback, break even at least.
I guess that unit chassis profit will be something like €16-18k at current listed selling prices. There will be some agency/dealer cost to suck up so say €10k unit profit.

30k units a year built & sold suggests a profitable (cash +ve) business but a slow payback, especially if we assume they could never sell Hambach plant for what it cost, have to write the cost off against p&l, they continue to incur chunky development costs and have to market the vehicles.

If they give up or fail then the issue for owners will likely be the unique parts - body/trim/dash/firewall, etc. Dedicated Saab or Rover owners will testify to parts supply and I suspect the park for those brands was larger but vehicle life cycle much shorter. Parts are tricky, even old Land Rover parts can be tricky.

Gut feel is that at some point the global economy will squeeze and Ineos will face difficult choices, hopefully without pressure from their funders. They need IA to be stable if/when the squeeze comes.

For me they will be around in ten years if they sort the niggles quickly and before they release many more vehicles.
That’s what I’d do, fix the issues this summer and press on again in the Autumn because the vehicle looks and feels ace.
I’d hire some very good customer facing people, ideally multi-lingual folk with technical speaking skills, an empathetic nature and make sure I was open about the issues being faced. Train them up rigorously. Head in sand = failure I think.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been in since early days and am looking forward to getting ’my truck’ but I’ll not put up with shoddy build and niggly faults. Mechanical failures I can live with hoping that IA have a parts supply system in place.

I wish Ineos the very best for continuing this project to long term success.
I assume whatever country Ineos Auto pays tax in has a basically similar system to Australia.
Our financial year is July to June
As an example
I started a company in March 2004 and for the first 4 months up to end of June(financial year) I had no income, so no profit to pay tax on.
I did have lots of costs to claim on tax. example $100,000
A business doesn't get a tax refund, they get tax credits.
The following tax year I made a profit of say $50,000 so this was taxable but instead of having to pay it was offset against my tax credits.
It took me 4 years to consume all of the tax credits I built up in the first 4 months.
Ineos have been making a loss for 7 years so they will have plenty of tax credits to play with.
These tax credits are transferrable if they sell the company.

Of course if Ineos Automotive is not a separate tax reporting company, then their losses are offset against the parent companies profits.


1686704171929.png1686704215297.png
 

cheswick

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I'm not talking about released prices, but about desired prices in the beginning. There were a lot speculations in the media, but the first official price in Germany was 59k for the utility. I wrote about it on 10-18-2022 when the first IG was produced. I mentioned there, that the desired price originally was near the 50k. I was told about that by IA guys when I got the two IG in my garage in 12/2021. A few weeks later they added around 5k.

AWo
Maybe it's just life experience but you would have to be naïve not to add ~15% to any projection that far out from a company doing what Ineos was doing here. Next you need to take into account the crazy increase in input costs for Ineos (chip shortage, energy costs in Europe, rampant inflation, war impacts to supply chain, etc) as well as the fact that the market is currently tolerating a much higher price for vehicles in this category. In the end supply and demand will dictate the price, either they aren't selling enough in which case they will lower the price to stimulate demand or the demand is higher than their capacity to produce vehicles in which case they can charge a higher margin and profit more from each vehicle. That's the way the world works, if it's not for you then maybe a hippie commune would be more to your tastes, you will have to drive a kombi-van and forget about the Ineos though :)
 

YellowLab

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I think it comes down to several issues - but in the short term build quality must become bullet proof before it hits the states. If these start going through all the issues and there is not a dealer network to support, the resale value will drop to nada. People have always like the one off unique cars - but if they realize that the value goes to 50% or less in the first year due to quality - the market for INEOS will die off quickly. With Toyota announcing the new GX Off Road and the return of the Land Cruiser (both in that same price range ~$90k I think INEOS will start feeling the competition. If they can make the quality where it needs to be - and I think Sir Jim wants it that way, they have a strong future. My build for a TrialMaster is hitting at $95K - for me the price is not the issue - I want this car to be rock solid and fit and finish to be worthy. That is my gating factor at this point....
 
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MrMike

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I think it comes down to several issues - but in the short term build quality must become bullet proof before it hits the states. If these start going through all the issues and there is not a dealer network to support, the resale value will drop to nada. People have always like the one off unique cars - but if they realize that the value goes to 50% or less in the first year due to quality - the market for INEOS will die off quickly. With Toyota announcing the new GX Off Road and the return of the Land Cruiser (both in that same price range ~$90k I think INEOS will start feeling the competition. If they can make the quality where it needs to be - and I think Sir Jim wants it that way, they have a strong future. My build for a TrialMaster is hitting at $95K - for me the price is not the issue - I want this car to be rock solid and fit and finish to be worthy. That is my gating factor at this point....
I think that IG or potential IG owners would not be 300 series owners, these are IMO 2 different vehicles, and to drive they are poles apart. But maybe US buyers are different? I don't know.
 
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