What an I missing... or is Ineos missing something???

[HereinDaRockies]

So I think i'm like a lot of folks on this forum where i have some history/experience with old defenders, some nostalgia for them.
I stalked and studied Ineos as the grenadier was talked about and later brought into production.
I bided my time till they got a couple model years production under their belts and then i pulled the trigger.
I bought a '24 Trialmaster a few months ago, I'm told by the dealer that my number 20,414 is the 3rd model year but the 5th generation.
After several months I kinda like it, I like the overall design and stature and its uniqueness. love the seats.
Wonderful idea, incredibly poor execution.
What do I hate... the turning radius is probably the worse.. ok that or the fact that it leaks in the rain.
Literally it turns worse than any vehicle in my pretty full 12 car garage.. its bad enough that it hurts it as an off road vehicle... nature has very few straight lines and this SUV likes straight lines.
The range... 250 miles!, just about 1/2 of most of my other vehicles, I get that in england and maybe europe but USA, canada.. australia.
The next worse thing i have is the Jeep at about 375 range, my Ram gets just over 500. Most days I drive the gren is a fill it up day.
Or how about the ADAS, how much engineering did it take to create the most annoying and intrusive system on the market that offers absolutely no driver assistance.
They had no hesitation to buy other car company components... why not buy toyotas adas? my mid level Tacoma and wifes lexus both have one with no beeps and clicks yet it practically drives the car for you.
And overall besides being among my newest vehicles it's a dealer garage queen, I think in the 3+ months I've had it's been in for tweaks and warranty work 5 times.
My 16 year old wrangler with 150k miles is more nimble and capable off road, my wife says my Ram diesel with 3 times the towing capacity is a more comfortable ride.
With all that it's hardly a kit or bargain fixer upper, Mine was $90,000. Except for my S-Class Mercedes the most expensive car in my garage.

After all that i found myself talking to the sales guy while at the dealer for yet another warranty repair about when the order books were open for the '26 models.
And if they've gotten their quality control and driver experience act any more together in '26 than they had in '24.

I am probably going to trade in my '24 trialmaster, I just don't think its a sustainable long term vehicle. I'm on the fence whether i get a new (hopefully) improved '26 grenadier or a '26 Bronco raptor with all the boxes checked.

Thoughts.. did I miss something?

Bro you can’t simply buy some other company’s ADAS. The whole system calibrates to a specific vehicle ( camera height, camera type etc) and requires a lot of investment in testing and certification.

Ineos simply has zero expertise and limited budget for this feature

 

[landmannnn]

Have you driven a solid-front-axle G-wagen on the street? Besides raw acceleration and sound, it is an abomination.

And add that 90k would probably only buy you half of that G Wagen

 

[Clark Kent]

So I think i'm like a lot of folks on this forum where i have some history/experience with old defenders, some nostalgia for them.
I stalked and studied Ineos as the grenadier was talked about and later brought into production.
I bided my time till they got a couple model years production under their belts and then i pulled the trigger.
I bought a '24 Trialmaster a few months ago, I'm told by the dealer that my number 20,414 is the 3rd model year but the 5th generation.
After several months I kinda like it, I like the overall design and stature and its uniqueness. love the seats.
Wonderful idea, incredibly poor execution.
What do I hate... the turning radius is probably the worse.. ok that or the fact that it leaks in the rain.
Literally it turns worse than any vehicle in my pretty full 12 car garage.. its bad enough that it hurts it as an off road vehicle... nature has very few straight lines and this SUV likes straight lines.
The range... 250 miles!, just about 1/2 of most of my other vehicles, I get that in england and maybe europe but USA, canada.. australia.
The next worse thing i have is the Jeep at about 375 range, my Ram gets just over 500. Most days I drive the gren is a fill it up day.
Or how about the ADAS, how much engineering did it take to create the most annoying and intrusive system on the market that offers absolutely no driver assistance.
They had no hesitation to buy other car company components... why not buy toyotas adas? my mid level Tacoma and wifes lexus both have one with no beeps and clicks yet it practically drives the car for you.
And overall besides being among my newest vehicles it's a dealer garage queen, I think in the 3+ months I've had it's been in for tweaks and warranty work 5 times.
My 16 year old wrangler with 150k miles is more nimble and capable off road, my wife says my Ram diesel with 3 times the towing capacity is a more comfortable ride.
With all that it's hardly a kit or bargain fixer upper, Mine was $90,000. Except for my S-Class Mercedes the most expensive car in my garage.

After all that i found myself talking to the sales guy while at the dealer for yet another warranty repair about when the order books were open for the '26 models.
And if they've gotten their quality control and driver experience act any more together in '26 than they had in '24.

I am probably going to trade in my '24 trialmaster, I just don't think its a sustainable long term vehicle. I'm on the fence whether i get a new (hopefully) improved '26 grenadier or a '26 Bronco raptor with all the boxes checked.

Thoughts.. did I miss something?

I don't think you missed much. Perhaps you anticipated more evolution than has been delivered in a relatively short time.

Your analysis reminds me of my time on the F35 Lightning II aircraft development program, now 20 years ago (!!). The managing DoD agency, known as the Joint Program Office (JPO), referred to the F35 as a 'purple solution'. It wasn't Navy white, Marine khaki or Air Force blue. JPO first had to get rid of the service tribalism where each service didn't want to accept the compromise of an aircraft built to do stuff they had no specific use for. It wasn't intended as a 100% replacement for F14, F15, F16, F/A-18, Harrier/AV-8B, Tornado, et al. It was going to be a compromise of most of the common mission capabilities of those aircraft types rolled into a single platform split across three branched variants. The F35 is far from perfect, many say it's too compromised, but it's a handy aircraft that does many things well and is a lot cheaper and easier to manage as a single aircraft type versus multiple fleets of service and mission-oriented aircraft that can do one or two things well. Like a 12-car garage

Enter the Grenadier:
There are better daily drives...
There are better freeway cruisers...
There are better rock crawlers...
There are better load haulers...
There are better mall crawlers...
There are better city cars...

It's not a Ford, Toyota, RAM or Chev with their rusted on but often misplaced loyalties.

In the present market you'll struggle to find another single vehicle that can do all of those things as well as the Grenadier - if you are willing to accept there are inevitable compromises (and a few design and build missteps). Deciding if a Grenadier is good for you comes down to how you want to use it and how you prioritise the capabilities. If a prospective buyer ran down my list above and weighted how they expect to use their vehicle some would definitely shop elsewhere. And that's my response to the common question: "Is it any good?" For my needs, it's great. For your needs I don't know. Hasten slowly.

I'm an early adopter of a 3/2023 build with VIN #1886. The first time I drove it was on delivery day. No ADAS

 

[bigleonski]

I don't think you missed much. Perhaps you anticipated more evolution than has been delivered in a relatively short time.

Your analysis reminds me of my time on the F35 Lightning II aircraft development program, now 20 years ago (!!). The managing DoD agency, known as the Joint Program Office (JPO), referred to the F35 as a 'purple solution'. It wasn't Navy white, Marine khaki or Air Force blue. JPO first had to get rid of the service tribalism where each service didn't want to accept the compromise of an aircraft built to do stuff they had no specific use for. It wasn't intended as a 100% replacement for F14, F15, F16, F/A-18, Harrier/AV-8B, Tornado, et al. It was going to be a compromise of most of the common mission capabilities of those aircraft types rolled into a single platform split across three branched variants. The F35 is far from perfect, many say it's too compromised, but it's a handy aircraft that does many things well and is a lot cheaper and easier to manage as a single aircraft type versus multiple fleets of service and mission-oriented aircraft that can do one or two things well. Like a 12-car garage

Enter the Grenadier:
There are better daily drives...
There are better freeway cruisers...
There are better rock crawlers...
There are better load haulers...
There are better mall crawlers...
There are better city cars...

It's not a Ford, Toyota, RAM or Chev with their rusted on but often misplaced loyalties.

In the present market you'll struggle to find another single vehicle that can do all of those things as well as the Grenadier - if you are willing to accept there are inevitable compromises (and a few design and build missteps). Deciding if a Grenadier is good for you comes down to how you want to use it and how you prioritise the capabilities. If a prospective buyer ran down my list above and weighted how they expect to use their vehicle some would definitely shop elsewhere. And that's my response to the common question: "Is it any good?" For my needs, it's great. For your needs I don't know. Hasten slowly.

I'm an early adopter of a 3/2023 build with VIN #1886. The first time I drove it was on delivery day. No ADAS

Well said.
A mate of mine recently drove my grenny and was keen as mustard. But at the end of the day, and based on his use requirements, the fact both he and his wife would drive it equally and the fsct it would only get off the bitumen occasionally, I recommended he but his other choice (250 Prado. He did, and he loves it. He might have loved the grenny, but my gut told me he’d be happier with the Yota.

 

[Zimm]

Thoughts.. did I miss something?

yes you missed something. What you missed was “search”, and 2 years of discussion available free prior to your purchase. Your post should be dated Dec 2023.

 

[INEOS OG]

So I think i'm like a lot of folks on this forum where i have some history/experience with old defenders, some nostalgia for them.
I stalked and studied Ineos as the grenadier was talked about and later brought into production.
I bided my time till they got a couple model years production under their belts and then i pulled the trigger.
I bought a '24 Trialmaster a few months ago, I'm told by the dealer that my number 20,414 is the 3rd model year but the 5th generation.
After several months I kinda like it, I like the overall design and stature and its uniqueness. love the seats.
Wonderful idea, incredibly poor execution.
What do I hate... the turning radius is probably the worse.. ok that or the fact that it leaks in the rain.
Literally it turns worse than any vehicle in my pretty full 12 car garage.. its bad enough that it hurts it as an off road vehicle... nature has very few straight lines and this SUV likes straight lines.
The range... 250 miles!, just about 1/2 of most of my other vehicles, I get that in england and maybe europe but USA, canada.. australia.
The next worse thing i have is the Jeep at about 375 range, my Ram gets just over 500. Most days I drive the gren is a fill it up day.
Or how about the ADAS, how much engineering did it take to create the most annoying and intrusive system on the market that offers absolutely no driver assistance.
They had no hesitation to buy other car company components... why not buy toyotas adas? my mid level Tacoma and wifes lexus both have one with no beeps and clicks yet it practically drives the car for you.
And overall besides being among my newest vehicles it's a dealer garage queen, I think in the 3+ months I've had it's been in for tweaks and warranty work 5 times.
My 16 year old wrangler with 150k miles is more nimble and capable off road, my wife says my Ram diesel with 3 times the towing capacity is a more comfortable ride.
With all that it's hardly a kit or bargain fixer upper, Mine was $90,000. Except for my S-Class Mercedes the most expensive car in my garage.

After all that i found myself talking to the sales guy while at the dealer for yet another warranty repair about when the order books were open for the '26 models.
And if they've gotten their quality control and driver experience act any more together in '26 than they had in '24.

I am probably going to trade in my '24 trialmaster, I just don't think its a sustainable long term vehicle. I'm on the fence whether i get a new (hopefully) improved '26 grenadier or a '26 Bronco raptor with all the boxes checked.

Thoughts.. did I miss something?

No disrespect my friend, but if I had to explain it to you, you couldn't understand.

Best of luck with the Bronco Raptor.

 

[Sean326]

yes you missed something. What you missed was “search”, and 2 years of discussion available free prior to your purchase. Your post should be dated Dec 2023.

No I think i covered it here:
"I bided my time till they got a couple model years production under their belts and then i pulled the trigger."
I watched the brand, hung out on all the boards and pages, test drove it etc...
Most of the issues from the first couple years they did address to some level through what my dealer called "5 generations of changes over 3 model years".
It seemed with the massive number of warranty repairs and many modifications they were getting ahead of the worst "customer experience" issues.
Everything from the door locks not working through the safari windows leaking and many others seemed to have been addressed satisfactorily.
The real issue is if they can reach a critical mass of sales with the public to support the company as a mainstream ongoing car company after they sell all they can to defender nostalgists. If not and they fail we are stuck with a fairly delicate and failure prone vehicle and no manufacturer support.

 

[Sean326]

Bro you can’t simply buy some other company’s ADAS. The whole system calibrates to a specific vehicle ( camera height, camera type etc) and requires a lot of investment in testing and certification.

Ineos simply has zero expertise and limited budget for this feature

That may be true but it would seem that the range of sizes and shapes of (for example) Toyota and Lexus vehicles from compact sporty cars to small and large SUV's to small and large trucks they could make one fit a grenadier.
Would buying a state of the art proven system be costlier than the bad PR and lost sales of probably 1/2 of the public feedback being customer complaints having to do with some aspect of the ADAS system?

 

[Tom109]

No I think i covered it here:
"I bided my time till they got a couple model years production under their belts and then i pulled the trigger."

That’s the problem - there haven’t been a couple model years in production. Its basically one MY with running changes.

 

[Sean326]

And add that 90k would probably only buy you half of that G Wagen

Yes, you are right, but also my dealer had a factory Gren on his lot for $200k.
The AMG g-wagon is about $186.
It doesn't take too many boxes getting checked to hit $100 and you are solidly in the range of other expensive suv's like BMW, lexus and mercedes. that's who we need to compete with to keep our factory and dealer support alive .

 

[Jeremy996]

I'm on my second Grenadier; the vehicle is basically fine, the support both to the public and to the dealers is poor, the comms are terrible and the attempts to manage poor PR non-existant. This is a small, albeit expensive, subsidiary of a B2B business that has minimal experience in the retail space and has insufficient bandwidth to fix all of its problems at the same time. It is getting better, but it is slow.

I appreciate that your vehicle was not fault free out of the box, but a surprisingly large number of new cars are not; Honda, Toyota, KIA and everyone else have their recalls too. The faults you have flagged so far are minor and dealer fixable; looking around this forum you will find many of the dealer recalls and technical service bulletins to fix the common issues, (the Resources tab is a great place to see if your dealer is stonewalling you).

In motor industry terms Ineos Automotive is tiny, with the blessings and curses that come with it, to expect them to compete in aftersales with the likes of Toyota is delusional, that they have managed to bring a functional vehicle to market is a surprise to many in the industry. They bought the skills to design, build and test in; it is very hard to buy in the softer skills of support, comms, parts supply etc. so the learning curve is theirs and it is painful.

 

[Sean326]

No disrespect my friend, but if I had to explain it to you, you couldn't understand.

Best of luck with the Bronco Raptor.

You mean explain to me that Ineos did not reverse engineer a defender, build a copy and sell it for $50K?
Or explain that they hired a company that specialized in the designed and engineering of vehicles like the G-wagon, Cayenne, BMW X series, several Aston Martins Then used a BMW engine and other components from other high end luxury cars like recaro seats, a suspension system commonly used in BMW, Mercedes and Land rover. Then bought a factory designed to make the G-Wagon to produce it. All in order to make a modern SUV at the price point of other contemporary very high end SUV's in the $100k range. Yet create one with obvious quality and performance issues far below anything in that class.
You mean explain that???

 

[HereinDaRockies]

That may be true but it would seem that the range of sizes and shapes of (for example) Toyota and Lexus vehicles from compact sporty cars to small and large SUV's to small and large trucks they could make one fit a grenadier.
Would buying a state of the art proven system be costlier than the bad PR and lost sales of probably 1/2 of the public feedback being customer complaints having to do with some aspect of the ADAS system?

It doesnt work like that.

#1 no automotive companies are selling their ADAS systems. It’s not a differentiator. It’s investment that are low margin and satisfy government mandates.

#2 what minute differences you perceive between vehicles are potentially monumental differences that will render the Adas system effectively non-operable, from a reliability perspective

 

[Tom109]

You mean explain to me that Ineos did not reverse engineer a defender, build a copy and sell it for $50K?

That was not Sir Jim’s goal.

Or explain that they hired a company that specialized in the designed and engineering of vehicles like the G-wagon, Cayenne, BMW X series, several Aston Martins

It wasn’t intended to compete with luxury cars. It just falls in that price range.

Then used a BMW engine and other components from other high end luxury cars like recaro seats, a suspension system commonly used in BMW, Mercedes and Land Rover.

Because it’s quicker and cheaper engineering than building everything yourself.

Then bought a factory designed to make the G-Wagon to produce it.

It was actually a Smart factory.

 

[Sean326]

It doesnt work like that.

#1 no automotive companies are selling their ADAS systems. It’s not a differentiator. It’s investment that are low margin and satisfy government mandates.

#2 what minute differences you perceive between vehicles are potentially monumental differences that will render the Adas system effectively non-operable, from a reliability perspective

1, Bosch which is the ADAS system ineos already buys makes them for dozens of other car companies and offers capabilities from just a backup cam to SAE level 3 and 4 which is self driving with limits.
2, The differences aren't minute.. in fact the gren's ADAS is so intrusive and annoying that a NJ owner named his Gren "artoo deetoo" after the constantly chirping robot in star wars. I would say that by un scientific guestimate about 20% of the complaint posts on this very site are about some part of the ADAS. I have other cars with ADAS and have driven even more. Most not as expensive as my Gren and their ADAS units are far less intrusive (no chirps clicks and beeps) yet offer orders of magnitude more of the Driver Assistance in the ADAS.
Certainly no one is using ADAS off road, as a builder, hunter, first responder and large landowner i'm offroad many times every week. But i'm also in a big country and big state where several times a week i spend hours driving in a straight line at 75 mph. Just the basic adaptive cruise control where you can set your speed at 80mph and the following distance and the ADAS keeps you in lane and at a safe distance and speed is much safer and more relaxing. If you buy any other $90k SUV (and many that are far less) it will have a much more capable and less annoying adas.

 

[Sean326]

That was not Sir Jim’s goal.

Yes it actually was, he approached TATA to buy their defender factory in wales with the branding, tooling, parts and everything, in fact that very concept was the centerpiece of his earliest press releases.

It wasn’t intended to compete with luxury cars. It just falls in that price range.

I believe that sir jim is smarter than that, if his goal was to make a car that is not a defender and not a luxury car but price it that way... then it's a hobby, not a business plan.
If that's it then we are all screwed, if there is one car out there that needs infrastructure and dealer/manufacturer support its our beloved Gren.
I believe his plan after the initial TATA factory purchase failed was to use the cachet and nostalgia as a marketing plan to introduce a new car company onto the luxury SUV market.
In fact he has to have more buyers than just old defender fans to make it a success, especially in the USA which is the largest SUV & Truck market in the world and the defender was never really a thing here. It was only sold from '93 to '97 and due to DOT was never allowed to be a one off import. In all those years just 6,000 were sold.

Because it’s quicker and cheaper engineering than building everything yourself.

Yes absolutely agree. but he did pick very expensive luxury components, he absolutely could have duplicated an old defender with way more basic parts, India, chevy, jeep and other equal mid level basic parts.

It was actually a Smart factory.

Yes when swatch, yes the watch company and mercedes built it they jointly manufactured something called a smart car, a tiny electric car from what i recall.

 

[Dreadfully Distinct]

Interesting. There isn’t a single word in this thread that I needed to know in order to enjoy my Grenny. Seems to me it’s luck of the draw. If that ain’t your can of beans, then stay away. Happy trails…

 

[INEOS OG]

You mean explain to me that Ineos did not reverse engineer a defender, build a copy and sell it for $50K?
Or explain that they hired a company that specialized in the designed and engineering of vehicles like the G-wagon, Cayenne, BMW X series, several Aston Martins Then used a BMW engine and other components from other high end luxury cars like recaro seats, a suspension system commonly used in BMW, Mercedes and Land rover. Then bought a factory designed to make the G-Wagon to produce it. All in order to make a modern SUV at the price point of other contemporary very high end SUV's in the $100k range. Yet create one with obvious quality and performance issues far below anything in that class.
You mean explain that???

It is a station wagon.

 

[Jeremy996]

Yes it actually was, he approached TATA to buy their defender factory in wales with the branding, tooling, parts and everything, in fact that very concept was the centerpiece of his earliest press releases.

I believe that sir jim is smarter than that, if his goal was to make a car that is not a defender and not a luxury car but price it that way... then it's a hobby, not a business plan.
If that's it then we are all screwed, if there is one car out there that needs infrastructure and dealer/manufacturer support its our beloved Gren.
I believe his plan after the initial TATA factory purchase failed was to use the cachet and nostalgia as a marketing plan to introduce a new car company onto the luxury SUV market.
In fact he has to have more buyers than just old defender fans to make it a success, especially in the USA which is the largest SUV & Truck market in the world and the defender was never really a thing here. It was only sold from '93 to '97 and due to DOT was never allowed to be a one off import. In all those years just 6,000 were sold.

Yes absolutely agree. but he did pick very expensive luxury components, he absolutely could have duplicated an old defender with way more basic parts, India, chevy, jeep and other equal mid level basic parts.

Yes when swatch, yes the watch company and mercedes built it they jointly manufactured something called a smart car, a tiny electric car from what i recall.

There is a bit to unpack from here, as much of it is a little off-beam.

Yes, the original discussion was to buy the pre-2016 Defender line, but Tata/JLR listened, then said no. The line has never been in Wales, (it was in Solihull), and the tools and working practises had more in common with the 1950s than the 2010s. Take a look at the last models of the old Defender and have a critical look at the panel pressings and the general fit and finish, the tooling was in a shocking state.

A lot of industry analyists did think this was a huge vanity project and many still do, roughly 2 Billion GBP later. There is no other vehicle with 2 beam axles in the non-commercial 4x4 space, JLR have gone upmarket, anyone else in the space, from price points from Dacia to Mercedes G-Wagen has at least an independent front axle.

Ineos as a group has no experience in the retail space, (other than alcohol based hand washes in Covid), with everything else being B2B, so everything client facing is new and facing a massive learning curve.

The Grenadier was not intended as a luxury 4x4 as designed, but a more comfortable utility/overlander and the original price point was more Hilux and late model pre-2016 Defender than what was actually delivered. It is a little small to be squarely in the luxury segment and designed to be much more basic than the New Defender.

The Grenadier business plan was always as a niche vehicle, break-even at the factory is supposed to be somewhere in the 25-30,000 vehicles per annum, with the abilty to build more by adding shifts. This is not many more than the old Defender in its later years, (the last years sales were distorted by FOMO). The small volumn makes economies of scale really hard to achieve, which has pushed the price point up, not helped by Covid and the excess capacity in the auto industry space.

Realistically, Inoes Automotive has to sell to a much wider customer base than the dedicated overlander/4x4 nut, so building more luxury orientated vehicles is a vital part of the marketing plan, but I think they have issues with defining what luxury is in this context, (cashmere roof lining, really?), and although they have asked me, (the recent Letter from Lynn Calder), I not sure my input is relevant, as I bought a utility station wagon with a few options, then second hand, a Fieldmaster with lockers.

There is no way he could have duplicated the old Defender as it needed to pass all of the regulations for crash tests, safety systems, emissions, ADAS and not all automotive manufacturers will sell their componants to potential competitors. The engine is expensive, the transfer box an unknown quantity, much of the rest is worldwide OE standard bits, with a few custom tweaks.

The Smart car was not originally an electric car, but a small ICE lump, (as it was ultimately a JV between Swatch and Mercedes), retail launch was back in 1998, but the project had its origins in 1982 and a development program with VW in 1991.

 

[landmannnn]

You mean explain to me that Ineos did not reverse engineer a defender, build a copy and sell it for $50K?
Or explain that they hired a company that specialized in the designed and engineering of vehicles like the G-wagon, Cayenne, BMW X series, several Aston Martins Then used a BMW engine and other components from other high end luxury cars like recaro seats, a suspension system commonly used in BMW, Mercedes and Land rover. Then bought a factory designed to make the G-Wagon to produce it. All in order to make a modern SUV at the price point of other contemporary very high end SUV's in the $100k range. Yet create one with obvious quality and performance issues far below anything in that class.
You mean explain that???

Some inaccuracies in this and other posts.
1. The suspension system is not commonly found (at all) on BMWs and Mercedes.
2.The factory in Hambach was never used for G Wagens
3. The Smart car was not electric.
4. The Mercedes/Swatch arrangement was not a JV
5 The old Defender was never produced in Wales
6 The choice of BMW engines was not luxury, IAs requirement was for a 10 year guaranteed supply and BMW were the only company willing to provide this.
7 High end SUVs don't cost 100k, more like double that.
8. Your dealer had a factory Gren for 200k? Please post a link as proof.