Trialmaster delete

[stickshifter]

Nice info from both Paul and DaveB. Thanks guys!

 

[grenadierboy]

Stickshifter-

Your tables are really good with interesting comparisons. 

Another method of HP comparison is to show the amount of vehicle weight each HP has to "deal with" or move forward: E.g. for each HP in each engine, the 4 Runner must move 13 lbs of weight, the FJ Cruiser 17lbs and the Grenadiers' engine must move 20lbs.

However, whilst indicative, I think these calculations provide only first step to determine how the vehicle will ultimately perform.

The amount of HP per pound of weight or the amount of weight each HP has to "deal" with, is only one of a multitude of factors, (i.e. transmission, suspension set-up, axels, distribution of weight, overall geometry etc.) that together will determine final performance.

So - given your requirements - I guess this probably makes actually driving the Grenadier and in your specific conditions really important in your decision to buy it or not.

 

[paulN186]

https://www.theineosforum.com/post/diff-locks-or-not-12366058?pid=1332747423 have a look at this video from about 32 minutes in he drives at 50kph in 6th then boots it and it drops to 3rd and looks more than fast enough. he then stops and puts it into low range and do a 0-80 kph pull which could be a fun party trick as it takes off like a rocket! that B58 engine and ZF 8 speed combo is going to be amazing! ? 

 

[emax]

As power is the product of revs and torque, the final performance is not what the peaks tells us but how the performance steps in already at low revs.

It would be interesting to have a comparison diagram of the Grenadiers B57 performance over the entire revs-range and of other B57s with nominally higher performance.

 

[stickshifter]

 emax an hour ago · Edited As power is the product of revs and torque, the final performance is not what the peaks tells us but how the performance steps in already at low revs.

It would be interesting to have a comparison diagram of the Grenadiers B57 performance over the entire revs-range and of other B57s with nominally higher performance.

[QUOTE username=Mark Evans  grenadierboy userid=8954799 postid=1332747685]Stickshifter-

Your tables are really good with interesting comparisons. 

Another method of HP comparison is to show the amount of vehicle weight each HP has to "deal with" or move forward: E.g. for each HP in each engine, the 4 Runner must move 13 lbs of weight, the FJ Cruiser 17lbs and the Grenadiers' engine must move 20lbs.

However, whilst indicative, I think these calculations provide only first step to determine how the vehicle will ultimately perform.

The amount of HP per pound of weight or the amount of weight each HP has to "deal" with, is only one of a multitude of factors, (i.e. transmission, suspension set-up, axels, distribution of weight, overall geometry etc.) that together will determine final performance.

So - given your requirements - I guess this probably makes actually driving the Grenadier and in your specific conditions really important in your decision to buy it or not.
[/QUOTE]

Hi Mark,
Yes, you are absolutely right - as is emax. I appreciate your comments! Maximum horse power and torque numbers are just a small part of vehicle performance (a fact I did recognize in my previous posts). What maximum power numbers do not tell us is when the power is delivered. In modern forced induction engines, full power is reached at low rpms, and then the power curve stays quite flat for the next few thousand rpms. This provides much better driving characteristics than a typical naturally aspirated six-cylinder, where the power often arrives at over 3500 rpms. If the engine is not very torquey (3rd Gen Tacoma, for example), you have to rev it out like crazy to make power. Combine that with high elevation, and you have an anemic engine at lower rpms. On back roads in the mountains, I regularly down-shift into first gear (manual transmission). As anyone with experience driving manuals knows, this is not a good downshift. I know that the Grenadier will drive much better than a vehicle with a naturally aspirated engine with similar max power numbers. I'm really looking forward to a test-drive. I truly hope that between the forced induction (power arriving at low pms), and the ZF 8-speed, the Grenadier will be able to accelerate at any speed and road-grade. There is no way I am buying another vehicle that can't cope with mountain driving, and certainly not at twice the price I paid for my current truck. So I am cautious - but consider me cautiously optimistic. All the best!

 

[Paachi]

For me the Grenadier is a bit under powered in the petrol variant..not because I am chasing peak Hp/ torque numbers.
I currently  drive a vehicle which weighs almost as much as the Grenadier (5440 lbs with a fixed sleeping platform and 90% fuel) and produces ~200hp and ~350Nm of torque (after tuning up from a stock 177hp/ 330Nm). The issue I have with lower power is that when climbing a long grade (7-10%) over several miles the engine is really straining and getting loaded at the not happy end of the rev range. This means more heat, more fuel consumption and general fatigue in driving. To compound things further, when you drive in open plains/ desserts like Death Valley the winds take a heavy toll on the engine performance and fuel consumption  
I did research on the tunability of the BMW B58 but the ZF box they use on the petrol (8HP51) taps out at 500Nm. That’s very little headroom from stock. To me this is the biggest Achilles heel of the platform now. I really wish they’d put the diesel transmission (8HP76) in the petrol also. Still I’m hoping that the engine + transmission combo makes for a decent driving experience. I’ll take a well married engine + tranny and a smooth linear curve with torque that arrives as early as possible. 
I will be looking keenly at the drive review of folks from Europe and Australia on the petrol version before putting my build money in

 

[stickshifter]

[QUOTE username=Paachi userid=8372535 postid=1332750529]For me the Grenadier is a bit under powered in the petrol variant..not because I am chasing peak Hp/ torque numbers.
I currently  drive a vehicle which weighs almost as much as the Grenadier (5440 lbs with a fixed sleeping platform and 90% fuel) and produces ~200hp and ~350Nm of torque (after tuning up from a stock 177hp/ 330Nm). The issue I have with lower power is that when climbing a long grade (7-10%) over several miles the engine is really straining and getting loaded at the not happy end of the rev range. This means more heat, more fuel consumption and general fatigue in driving. To compound things further, when you drive in open plains/ desserts like Death Valley the winds take a heavy toll on the engine performance and fuel consumption  
I did research on the tunability of the BMW B58 but the ZF box they use on the petrol (8HP51) taps out at 500Nm. That’s very little headroom from stock. To me this is the biggest Achilles heel of the platform now. I really wish they’d put the diesel transmission (8HP76) in the petrol also. Still I’m hoping that the engine + transmission combo makes for a decent driving experience. I’ll take a well married engine + tranny and a smooth linear curve with torque that arrives as early as possible. 
I will be looking keenly at the drive review of folks from Europe and Australia on the petrol version before putting my build money in[/QUOTE]

Well-stated, and it’s good to see someone else who is clearly excited about the Grenadier express some concerns about the power train. I also wish the gas engine came with the higher-rated transmission.
You do a better job than I did at explaining the fatigue and stress associated with driving a vehicle that is straining to perform its duties. Every environment is different, but perhaps the American West presents vehicles with challenges not found everywhere. In the summer, high heat with long inclines and high speed limit highways (unlike high heat but low speed driving in many other hot places), sometimes in conjunction with high elevation. 
Like you, I look forward to good critical reviews, and to driving one myself.

 

[stickshifter]

[QUOTE username=Paachi userid=8372535 postid=1332750529]For me the Grenadier is a bit under powered in the petrol variant..not because I am chasing peak Hp/ torque numbers.
I currently  drive a vehicle which weighs almost as much as the Grenadier (5440 lbs with a fixed sleeping platform and 90% fuel) and produces ~200hp and ~350Nm of torque (after tuning up from a stock 177hp/ 330Nm). The issue I have with lower power is that when climbing a long grade (7-10%) over several miles the engine is really straining and getting loaded at the not happy end of the rev range. This means more heat, more fuel consumption and general fatigue in driving. To compound things further, when you drive in open plains/ desserts like Death Valley the winds take a heavy toll on the engine performance and fuel consumption  
I did research on the tunability of the BMW B58 but the ZF box they use on the petrol (8HP51) taps out at 500Nm. That’s very little headroom from stock. To me this is the biggest Achilles heel of the platform now. I really wish they’d put the diesel transmission (8HP76) in the petrol also. Still I’m hoping that the engine + transmission combo makes for a decent driving experience. I’ll take a well married engine + tranny and a smooth linear curve with torque that arrives as early as possible. 
I will be looking keenly at the drive review of folks from Europe and Australia on the petrol version before putting my build money in[/QUOTE]

Hi Paachi,

I was focusing on the peak HP/Tq numbers - not because they are the key factor for me - but because it was the simplest way I could think of to quantify my concerns, which are very similar to yours. I haven't seen dyno tests for the Grenadier-version of the B58, so there aren't power and torque curves to examine, so I defaulted to the max power/torque numbers - even while recognizing their limitations in capturing the actual driving experience. I can see how some folks misunderstood my approach, and thought I was just chasing maximum output. That was never my intention, and I have no aspirations of racing the Grenadier against a 911 ? Thanks for expressing your concerns about the power train in a way that more accurately reflect my own concerns.

500Nm (the torque limit for the 8HP51 version of the ZF), is 369 lb-ft, which is just 11% higher than the 332 lb-ft of torque produced by the B58 in the Grenadier (sorry - I have to convert from Nm for these numbers to make sense to me). As you stated - this leaves no room for tuning. I assume that one's transmission has to be rated about 10% higher than a vehicle's maximum output - right? I'm quite surprised to see this version of the ZF paired with the B58. In so many ways, the Grenadier is overbuilt (like Landcruisers and 1st generation Tacomas were). It has a massive frame, and really heavy running gear. I can't say that I am happy with the decision to use the 8HP51 version of the ZF, when there is a stouter version available, and Ineos is using the stouter version with the B57.

 

[Paachi]

@stickshifter I hear you bud. I don’t think you were (or for that matter anyone else was) focusing on the peak numbers. It’s the area under the curve that matters. It’s all good. 
I just hope Ineos have a better reason than penny pinching to justify the 8HP51 vs using the 8HP76. 
While I say this, I also realize how asinine and elitist I sound. We live in a golden age of automobiles where we have engines like B58, trannys like 8HP and vehicles like the Grenadier and the opportunity to debate on the finer use cases. I honestly consider my self lucky that I can think about affording a rig like this and look forward to the experience it can enable. When I started on my journey of looking at overland rigs many years ago, the only choice was a Defender. I wanted a vehicle that would do long distance travel and still be capable as a daily. The Jeep wasn’t what it is today (even today I’d argue it needs some $$ to be made overland worthy) and the Land Cruiser and G Wagon were out of reach. Those desirable rigs today are too old and require constant tinkering to be playing double duty as overland and daily drivers. Start intersecting the Venn diagram of daily drivable, solid axels, locked diffs, decent payload and robust build and self serviceability; and the global shortlist of vehicles is still the mighty 4 (g wagon pur, lc 70, Jeep Wrangler, defender -> Grenadier). Some niche and newer vehicles like the Mitsubishi Canter/ Fuso, AEV spec Rams etc. do fit the bill but they are in no way mainstream, global platforms or daily drivers. Kinda makes the business case for why Sir Jim built the Grenadier. I think if the electric revolution weren’t happening, many manufacturers would have dedicated resources to cater to this niche but high margin market   Again this is a subjective musing that addresses my specific needs. Others might find solutions in other offerings. 

 

[emax]

If a tune can produce 332 lb-ft from 800 RPM on over the entire range, it would suffice.

A theory of course, but you get the idea.

 

[stickshifter]

[QUOTE username=Paachi userid=8372535 postid=1332752815]@stickshifter I hear you bud. I don’t think you were (or for that matter anyone else was) focusing on the peak numbers. It’s the area under the curve that matters. It’s all good. 
I just hope Ineos have a better reason than penny pinching to justify the 8HP51 vs using the 8HP76. 
While I say this, I also realize how asinine and elitist I sound. We live in a golden age of automobiles where we have engines like B58, trannys like 8HP and vehicles like the Grenadier and the opportunity to debate on the finer use cases. I honestly consider my self lucky that I can think about affording a rig like this and look forward to the experience it can enable. When I started on my journey of looking at overland rigs many years ago, the only choice was a Defender. I wanted a vehicle that would do long distance travel and still be capable as a daily. The Jeep wasn’t what it is today (even today I’d argue it needs some $$ to be made overland worthy) and the Land Cruiser and G Wagon were out of reach. Those desirable rigs today are too old and require constant tinkering to be playing double duty as overland and daily drivers. Start intersecting the Venn diagram of daily drivable, solid axels, locked diffs, decent payload and robust build and self serviceability; and the global shortlist of vehicles is still the mighty 4 (g wagon pur, lc 70, Jeep Wrangler, defender -> Grenadier). Some niche and newer vehicles like the Mitsubishi Canter/ Fuso, AEV spec Rams etc. do fit the bill but they are in no way mainstream, global platforms or daily drivers. Kinda makes the business case for why Sir Jim built the Grenadier. I think if the electric revolution weren’t happening, many manufacturers would have dedicated resources to cater to this niche but high margin market   Again this is a subjective musing that addresses my specific needs. Others might find solutions in other offerings. [/QUOTE]

Agree 100% - with regard to feeling fortunate enough to be in the market, and with regard to the entire thought-process of shopping for the ideal overland vehicle. I would guess that most of us on this forum have toyed with the idea of buying an older, mostly mechanical rig, and rebuilding it so that it can be a reliable daily driver as well as a rugged off-roader. Its why a company like Icon exists. At the same time, many of us probably wished that instead of rebuilding an old Landcruiser/Defender/etc. we could buy an "old" vehicle that was brand new. I guess Sir Jim had the same dream! This is so clearly what excites most people about the Grenadier. The Grenadier is such a cool project, and one that I want to support.

 

[Marsbilda]

Hey guys and girls
all I can say is when I drive my X5 diesel my mind say's to itself wouldn’t this engine gear box combined be awesome in my 100 series.
lower fuel usage, lower revs at highway speeds, more torque, smooth almost unnoticeable gear changes.
those thoughts started in 2011 when we bought it.
I have driven the current X5 and it is even better.
When this engine was announced I was over the moon.
if you haven’t experienced it, you have your order in and you are worried? Don’t be, from my experience you will be pleasantly surprised.
I eagerly waiting for the Pick up.

 

[Red pepper]

Could be great if  the  IG with the petrol engine has the option ( even for few more $) to choose the 8HP76 instead of the 8HP51..  (But why, why they not using it for the B58 if it is already comes with the B57? And for the same money...) 

 

[DaveB]

Does BMW offer the combination of the B58 with that gearbox? 
I imagine the bell housing would be dimensionally very different

 

[stickshifter]

[QUOTE username=DaveB userid=8923052 postid=1332754547]Does BMW offer the combination of the B58 with that gearbox? 
I imagine the bell housing would be dimensionally very different[/QUOTE]

EDIT TO CORRECT PREVIOUS INFO: No, I don't think so. Below is a table of ZF transmissions and some of their applications. The Supra has the B58 and the 8HP51, but the BMW cars running the 8HP51 have smaller, less powerful engines. When BMW uses the B58, they use a stronger version of the ZF transmission (often either the 8HP70 or 8HP75). NOTE: I did not do any fact-checking of the Wikipedia page.

 

  Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission

 

[paulN186]

500Nm is input torque rating - dynos measure torque at the wheels - which is multiplied by gear ratios, torque convertor, diff ratio and wheel/tyre radius. (i.e. Wheel torque is higher than input torque) 
took this from the Toyota forum as the new supra as the same gear box. I imagine that a stage 1 tune would not be an issue at all 

 

[emax]

But isn't the engine torque the input to the gear box?

 

[paulN186]

[QUOTE username=emax userid=8900646 postid=1332755776]But isn't the engine torque the input to the gear box?[/QUOTE]

yes but the torque figure we have for the car is at the wheel torque. Had abit more of a read on it and the looks like the transmission software would limit the torque to protect the gear box so if you did tune it you would probably also need to tune the box to get the full power / torque. As I say I am not an expert! It is a shame they didn’t put the higher torque box in like the deasil then it is simpler! 

 

[stickshifter]

Below is a table of ZF transmissions and some of their applications. The Supra has the B58 and the 8HP51, but the BMW cars running the 8HP51 have smaller, less powerful engines (from what I can tell). When BMW uses the B58, they use a stronger version of the ZF transmission (often, the 8HP70). NOTE: I did not do any fact-checking of the Wikipedia page, but you can click on the link below the table to check out that page yourself.

The table has been updated with details on car models.

  
  Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission

 

[paulN186]

Do we have it confirmed that the IG is using this box in the petrol version?