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Some clarifications concerning second seat row, Utility vs.Station Wagon

emax

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UPDATE August 7th, 2022: It was said recently, that the rear mounting holes for the back seats might be welded over in the Utility versions - maybe as a "stimulus" to buy the more expensive "Edition" versions. :mad:

Maybe you can grind down the weldings spots then, but nobody knows whether there will be a thread below ...
--------------------------------------


Yesterday, on the "Abenteuer und Allrad 2022" fair, I could catch some information concerning the question "Utility vs, Station Wagon, second seat row".

I talked do Werner, the white-haired driver from the Romania video:



It was about the differences between both, the Utility and the Station Wagon.

He told me, that, with respect to the seat row mount, both cars are the same. The seat row is mounted with 16 screws. You can remove them, and move the seat forward (in the Station wagon) or backwards (in the Utility) and then mount them in the extra screw holes which exist, according to his explanations, in both cars similarly. Thus, the only difference is which mounting points are chosen: more forward or more backwards.

What I don't know, is, whether and how how the steeper backrest can be aligned accordingly. My fault. But with this information in mind, somebody else will know which questions to ask.

However: my impression is that the Ineos associates do in fact not know how this is implemented (but the drivers do).

Werner told me, that he has ordered a 5-seat Utility version. Mounting the second seat row further back makes it a Station Wagon. "It's that simple" he said.

As for the battery and the electronics below the seat: It's for all cars the same mounting. The rear cargo area is higher than the floor between the seat rows. So a 2-seater has just a cover instead of the second seat row, that's all.

See my photographs below. The white car is from the Matzker stand and is AFAIK a 2B prototype.



The foot mount of the seat viewed from top:



This photo is from the from the PTO1 (a Station Wagon):


I couldn't take better photos with my pocket camera, I am sorry. But you get the idea.

A second step is necessary to clarify the bracket question for the back rest. But I am quite sure they are as generic as the seat mount is.

For me, my solution will be similar to Werners:

I would order a 5-seat utility (with metal panels instead of read windows). This would enable me to register the car as a Utility, which means about 200 ⬠tax/year instead of 1000 ⬠..., insurance a bit more expensive but still a significant win.

Removing the backseat is no problem. The cover DIY or original from Ineas - if available.

Utility or Station wagon: It's basically the same. Only the bracket question is open.

One thing to mention however: The drivers know the Prototypes very well. But we don't know about the production versions yet. The PTO1 looks very much the same, but the details are covered by carpet. So as of today, don't rely on this. I will however base may decision on this, as my deadline is June, 18th.

Perhaps this may help you to save some money: A Trialmaster is fine, but if a utility can be configured alike, It might be the better choice, in particular may be for the tax. And the metal panels can any time be converted into gull-wing windows.
 

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ADVAW8S

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Love the details, these tidbits help so much.  As someone in the US and with small children, the seat will be moved forward.   
 

grenadierboy

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[QUOTE username=emax userid=8900646 postid=1332851410]Yesterday, on the "Abenteuer und Allrad 2022" fair, I could catch some information concerning the question "Utility vs, Station Wagon, second seat row".

I talked do Werner, the white-haired driver from the Romania video:

 

It was about the differences between both, the Utility and the Station Wagon.

He told me, that, with respect to the seat row mount, both cars are the same. The seat row is mounted with 16 screws.  You can remove them, and move the seat forward (in the Station wagon) or backwards (in the Utility) and then mount them in the extra screw holes which exist, according to his explanations, in both cars similarly. Thus, the only difference is which mounting points are chosen: more forward or more backwards.

What I don't know, is, whether and how how the steeper backrest can be aligned accordingly. My fault. But with this information in mind, somebody else will know which questions to ask.

However: my impression is that the Ineos associates do in fact not know how this is implemented (but the drivers do).

Werner told me, that he has ordered a 5-seat Utility version. Mounting the second seat row further back makes it a Station Wagon. "It's that simple" he said.

As for the battery and the electronics below the seat: It's for all cars the same mounting. The rear cargo area is higher than the floor between the seat rows. So a 2-seater has just a cover instead of the second seat row, that's all.

See my photographs below. The white car is from the Matzker stand and is AFAIK a 2B prototype.

   

The foot mount of the seat viewed from top:
 
 

This photo is from the from the PTO1 (a Station Wagon):

 
I couldn't take better photos with my pocket camera, I am sorry. But you get the idea.

A second step is necessary to clarify the bracket question for the back rest. But I am quite sure they are as generic as the seat mount is.

For me, my solution will be similar to Werners:

I would order a 5-seat utility (with metal panels instead of read windows). This would enable me to register the car as a Utility, which means about 200 € tax/year instead of 1000 € ..., insurance a bit more expensive but still a significant win.

Removing the backseat is no problem. The cover DIY or original from Ineas - if available.

Utility or Station wagon: It's basically the same. Only the bracket question is open.

One thing to mention however: The drivers know the Prototypes very well. But we don't know about the production versions yet. The PTO1 looks very much the same, but the details are covered by carpet. So as of today, don't rely on this. I will however base may decision on this, as my deadline is June, 18th.

Perhaps this may help you to save some money: A Trialmaster is fine, but if a utility can be configured alike, It might be the better choice, in particular may be for the tax. And the metal panels can any time be converted into gull-wing windows.[/QUOTE]



I think there is a second more forward "slot" or opening in the side of the B pillar that the seat back clips into that makes the seat back more upright.
 

ECrider

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Thank you emax, appreciate the write up. You have cemented my decision I made for UW with steel panels. 
 

WhiteBear

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[QUOTE username=emax userid=8900646 postid=1332851410]Yesterday, on the "Abenteuer und Allrad 2022" fair, I could catch some information concerning the question "Utility vs, Station Wagon, second seat row".
….

It was about the differences between both, the Utility and the Station Wagon.

He told me, that, with respect to the seat row mount, both cars are the same. The seat row is mounted with 16 screws.  You can remove them, and move the seat forward (in the Station wagon) or backwards (in the Utility) and then mount them in the extra screw holes which exist, according to his explanations, in both cars similarly. Thus, the only difference is which mounting points are chosen: more forward or more backwards.

…..
For me, my solution will be similar to Werners:

I would order a 5-seat utility (with metal panels instead of read windows). This would enable me to register the car as a Utility, which means about 200 € tax/year instead of 1000 € ..., insurance a bit more expensive but still a significant win.

Removing the backseat is no problem. The cover DIY or original from Ineas - if available.

Utility or Station wagon: It's basically the same. Only the bracket question is open.

…

Perhaps this may help you to save some money: A Trialmaster is fine, but if a utility can be configured alike, It might be the better choice, in particular may be for the tax. And the metal panels can any time be converted into gull-wing windows.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for asking.

But there is still the question, if german Customs will accept the Utility as an N1-car and Ineos is sucessful to register the car as such. I remember a case some years ago where Customs did not accept that so the owners had to pay the hight tax for a M1 stationwagon and the high insurance for N1 also. These were cars that looked like the Grenadier and were considered as SUV (Toyota? I dont know).And I remember the trouble with my 2-seat Defender HT before they accepted it as an Utility.

Anyway, I ordered the 5-seat utility, build-slot September, and will experience the german financial authorities then. 
 

Pat-Ard

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@emax thank you very much for all the details…
 
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Thanks Emax

Nice to see a large gas strut on the rear door.
 

emax

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Karl,

you're right. "Auf hoher See und vor Deutschen Gerichten ist man in Gottes Hand." *)

The only Thing we can do is to be prepared.

*) On the high seas and before German courts you are in God's hands.
 
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[QUOTE username=blueTdi userid=8917020 postid=1332852519]

Thank you for asking.

But there is still the question, if german Customs will accept the Utility as an N1-car and Ineos is sucessful to register the car as such. I remember a case some years ago where Customs did not accept that so the owners had to pay the hight tax for a M1 stationwagon and the high insurance for N1 also. These were cars that looked like the Grenadier and were considered as SUV (Toyota? I dont know). And I remember the trouble with my 2-seat Defender HT before they accepted it as an Utility.

Anyway, I ordered the 5-seat utility, build-slot September, and will experience the german financial authorities then. [/QUOTE]
 Hi BlueTdi,

The entry as N1 in the vehicle documents alone is decisive for the german tax. It´s new by 23.10.2020

https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/auto-kaufen-verkaufen/kfz-steuer/lkw-zulassung/

 
 

WhiteBear

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Great news, thank you for the link. That makes my decision for the Utility even better, no hassle with insurance as my Defender is an Utility also. Just change the car and have the reductions on the insurance going on. 
 

emax

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Thanks a lot!

This is worth a thumbs up! :)
 
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Thanks for taking the time to provide the extra info on the 2nd seat row - very helpful & much appreciated.
 

Alprider

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Thanks Emax, the adjustable mounts are what I thought would be the case. Nice to have it confirmed!
 

crimson

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I don't see an option in the Aussie Configurator for a 5-seat Utility version, only 2 seats with no back row. Am I missing something?
 

emax

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This might be due to the Australian tax regulation (which I do actually not know). But we have discussions here about the LCT, and I prosume that a second row seat will bust the N1 classification.

Ask Ineos ?


BTW: There are different options and models offered in different countries. In Germany we can for example not order a bare Station Wagon without "Edition" add-ons.
 

grenadierboy

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Crimson 

There is no 5 seat "Utility" version for the Australian market. 

Just a Utility (2 seat only) version and the three versions of the Station Wagon (Grenadier; Grenadier TM ;Grenadier FM). 

As Australian car tax (LCT) is based on weight carrying capacity not on the load space as in the UK & EU, the rear seat stays in the same (more leg room) position.
 

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@emax
What do you mean with "And the metal panels can any time be converted into gull-wing windows."? How would that be possible? Isn´t the other option just normal solid windows?
 

emax

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This sounds a bit like you haven't done many DIY projects yet?

No problem: You take a Jig-saw and cut out the panels. Then you fit a gullwing-window.
Prerequisite:  There must be an after market offer of such a window first. But this is very likely only a matter of time.

After that, you can measure what to cut out.

The rest is business as usual. You can DIY or ask a camper-workshop to do this for you. It's all in all a very common procedure in the overlander scene. There are tons of video examples on youtube, here is a short one:

https://youtu.be/bWO3ZKwxEpc?t=40
 

emax

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BTW: The example shows a window which is purely glued. But many of the after market offers are windows with frames that are riveted or bolted and just sealed with silicone.

I consider these easier to mount. Just look on youtube.
 

amglounge

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Thanks a lot for your assistance, emax. You are right, so far I avoided DIY at cars. But the available videos encourage me to try it. My wife doesn´t like the metal panels, so I can pretend we would change them later instead of changing the order right away.
 
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