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Roll cage

blueTdi

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Some LR Defender 110 owners have had a roll cage installed later. Certainly a real, almost necessary increase in safety for a Defender, the aluminum body with the questionable A and B pillars can hardly withstand an accident with a rollover. If you seriously want to go on a long journey, such a cage is actually a must for this car (rolling down dunes). Safety Devices manufactures such cages, it is a renowned company.

Now the Grenadier is built a little more sturdily than a Defender, after all it has to meet various newer safety standards and is a modern car in general. Nevertheless, the question is whether you shouldn't also have a roll cage on the Grenadier when the going gets tough. I don't know of any statements or pictures from Ineos that document the crash behavior in such situations,

How do you see it? Does one need a cage for the car at all? If so when and why, or is that an expensive unnecessary gadget?

I'm aware that there isn't one yet on the market and no announcement about it, but of course if you really want one, there are companies that make something like that individually. It won't be cheap, but might be worth it if your grenadier rolls over.
 

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globalgregors

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Some LR Defender 110 owners have had a roll cage installed later. Certainly a real, almost necessary increase in safety for a Defender, the aluminum body with the questionable A and B pillars can hardly withstand an accident with a rollover. If you seriously want to go on a long journey, such a cage is actually a must for this car (rolling down dunes). Safety Devices manufactures such cages, it is a renowned company.

Now the Grenadier is built a little more sturdily than a Defender, after all it has to meet various newer safety standards and is a modern car in general. Nevertheless, the question is whether you shouldn't also have a roll cage on the Grenadier when the going gets tough. I don't know of any statements or pictures from Ineos that document the crash behavior in such situations,

How do you see it? Does one need a cage for the car at all? If so when and why, or is that an expensive unnecessary gadget?

I'm aware that there isn't one yet on the market and no announcement about it, but of course if you really want one, there are companies that make something like that individually. It won't be cheap, but might be worth it if your grenadier rolls over.
Resources industry (some operators at least) in Australia will require roll cages to be fitted.
If IG finds it’s fleet market those examples will emerge.
Typically much cheaper to fabricate than ship around, however.
 

Krabby

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For the three years that Defenders were sold new in USA (94,95,97) they were required to have roll cages to meet USA safety regs.
 

DCPU

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If you look carefully at some of the double cab prototypes, they have something fitted:
FB_IMG_1653715564684.jpg
img_0587_0.jpg
 

emax

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I am convinced that the Grenadier is out of the box sturdier than any (classic) LR Defender with a roll cage. But the damage will perhaps render a Grenadier a total economic loss.
 
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DaveB

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Typical mine spec vehicles in Australia need the following modifications but they can vary from site to site
It isn't compulsory to be a Toyota but..................
Santos require ANCAP 5 star rating which Ineos don't have so that rules them out and any other sites that follow Santos spec


1672000660403.png
1672000797734.png
1672000833498.png
 

AnD3rew

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Some LR Defender 110 owners have had a roll cage installed later. Certainly a real, almost necessary increase in safety for a Defender, the aluminum body with the questionable A and B pillars can hardly withstand an accident with a rollover. If you seriously want to go on a long journey, such a cage is actually a must for this car (rolling down dunes). Safety Devices manufactures such cages, it is a renowned company.

Now the Grenadier is built a little more sturdily than a Defender, after all it has to meet various newer safety standards and is a modern car in general. Nevertheless, the question is whether you shouldn't also have a roll cage on the Grenadier when the going gets tough. I don't know of any statements or pictures from Ineos that document the crash behavior in such situations,

How do you see it? Does one need a cage for the car at all? If so when and why, or is that an expensive unnecessary gadget?

I'm aware that there isn't one yet on the market and no announcement about it, but of course if you really want one, there are companies that make something like that individually. It won't be cheap, but might be worth it if your grenadier rolls over.
I think this very much depends on your own usage requirements and risk appetite. Tons of people 4wd in Australia everyday with a range of vehicles and 90%+ of them don’t have any kind of additional roll over protection. Accidents can happen anywhere but I am not planning any extreme rock hopping and the construction appears very sturdy, it can deal with several hundred kilos of static loads on the rood and I think from memory 150kg dynamic. Thats as good as you get for roof loads in stock vehicles. I am not worried at all.
 

DCPU

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I guess we'll have to wait, hopefully a long time, until we get the equivalent video to this for the new Defender. I'm not a fan of that vehicle, but this is mighty impressive.

 

bigleonski

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I guess we'll have to wait, hopefully a long time, until we get the equivalent video to this for the new Defender. I'm not a fan of that vehicle, but this is mighty impressive.

To survive that gives huge credit to the new defender.
Regardless of the reasons why IG aren’t doing / don’t need to do a test, I’d still be keen to understand its ANCAP or similar.
 

Jeremy996

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The old LR Defender was decidedly squishy in a rollover, the highest structural bit being the front bulkhead. There were a few old military Defenders brought back from the Falklands and sold through Witham's that were crushed down to the bulkhead and door-tops.

post-33-1199461697_thumb.jpg

Having said that, it was statistically a safe place to be; high speed rollovers are an unusual accident for the LR, most incidents tended to be low speed, low damage, (to the LR), with high survivability.

"Road accident statistics on a model-by-model basis from the UK Department of Transport show that the Land Rover Defender and Land Rover Discovery are the safest cars on British roads (measured in terms of chance of death in two car injury accidents) - between three times safer than the safest Volvo models, twice as safe (half the death-rate per two vehicles injury accident) compared with the Jeep Cherokee and Toyota Land Cruiser and only matched by the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and Jaguar XJ."

"Overall the four best vehicles to be in are the Jaguar XJ series 1%, Mercedes-Benz S-Class / SEC 1%, Land Rover Defender 1% and Land Rover Discovery 1%."

Last time I asked, Ineos were very pleased about their rollover protection, but annoyingly, their policy appears to be to rely on the low volume vehicle exemptions so far as Euro-NCAP and other public facing testing bodies. I'd hope they would be willing to release their internal expectations on crash performance.
 

bigleonski

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The old LR Defender was decidedly squishy in a rollover, the highest structural bit being the front bulkhead. There were a few old military Defenders brought back from the Falklands and sold through Witham's that were crushed down to the bulkhead and door-tops.

View attachment 7798709

Having said that, it was statistically a safe place to be; high speed rollovers are an unusual accident for the LR, most incidents tended to be low speed, low damage, (to the LR), with high survivability.

"Road accident statistics on a model-by-model basis from the UK Department of Transport show that the Land Rover Defender and Land Rover Discovery are the safest cars on British roads (measured in terms of chance of death in two car injury accidents) - between three times safer than the safest Volvo models, twice as safe (half the death-rate per two vehicles injury accident) compared with the Jeep Cherokee and Toyota Land Cruiser and only matched by the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and Jaguar XJ."

"Overall the four best vehicles to be in are the Jaguar XJ series 1%, Mercedes-Benz S-Class / SEC 1%, Land Rover Defender 1% and Land Rover Discovery 1%."


Last time I asked, Ineos were very pleased about their rollover protection, but annoyingly, their policy appears to be to rely on the low volume vehicle exemptions so far as Euro-NCAP and other public facing testing bodies. I'd hope they would be willing to release their internal expectations on crash performance.
I suppose it’s statistically difficult to be in a high speed rollover if you’re broken down on the side of the road somewhere. 😂😂😂😂
 

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Last time I asked, Ineos were very pleased about their rollover protection, but annoyingly, their policy appears to be to rely on the low volume vehicle exemptions so far as Euro-NCAP and other public facing testing bodies.
There is no exemption to Euro-NCAP. Euro-NCAP members get to pick (and pay for) whatever make/model they wish to submit for testing. Manufacturers may also sponsor tests.

Either way, Ineos aren't relying on "low volume vehicle exemptions".
 

Jeremy996

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There is no exemption to Euro-NCAP. Euro-NCAP members get to pick (and pay for) whatever make/model they wish to submit for testing. Manufacturers may also sponsor tests.

Either way, Ineos aren't relying on "low volume vehicle exemptions".
So they are choosing not be be at the front of the queue? (There are a couple of articles that suggest that Ineos are in no hurry to have the Grenadier tested).

The NCAP website implies that any testing of the Grenadier may be a long time away or potentially never. https://www.euroncap.com/en/about-euro-ncap/the-car-selection-explained/ As members choose what will be tested, it seems unlikely they will opt for a low volume semi-commercial vehicle.
 

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So they are choosing not be be at the front of the queue? (There are a couple of articles that suggest that Ineos are in no hurry to have the Grenadier tested).

The NCAP website implies that any testing of the Grenadier may be a long time away or potentially never. https://www.euroncap.com/en/about-euro-ncap/the-car-selection-explained/ As members choose what will be tested, it seems unlikely they will opt for a low volume semi-commercial vehicle.
I wouldn’t read too much into that re crash ratings etc. the reality is that IG know they can’t achieve 5 star without things like AEB and lane departure warnings etc under the most recent NCAP requirements. So from a pure marketing point of view they are better off being unrated than 3-4 star rated. They had some damn good engineers working on this vehicle, I doubt it will crash badly but won’t have all the electronic crash avoidance tech and also probaaren’t great on pedestrian impact etc. under Euro NCAP 3 stars can mean that it has at least average performance on crash testing but lacking in crash avoidance tech, but 3 stars isn’t a great look for marketing purposes. We know what we are buying, I would quite like to see the crash performance but I understand I am not getting the latest avoidance tech.
 
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DenisM

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I'm sceptical of some later (not all) ANCAP requirements. One cannot take account of all human frailties... There's a deal of technological "determinism" going on trying to substitute electronic "Nannies" for personal responsibility. Drivers paying attention might be a good start. Dashcam on YouTube is most instructive....
Newton's Laws of Motion indicate that a pedestrian surviving a collision with a moving body x30 times its mass is always going to be problematic...
 

DaveB

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I'm sceptical about a lot (not all) ANCAP requirements. One cannot take account of all human frailties... There's a deal of technological "determinism" going on trying to substitute electronic "Nannies" for personal responsibility. Drivers paying attention might be a good start. Newton's Laws of Motion indicate that a pedestrian surviving a collision with a moving body x30 times its mass is always going to be problematic...
ANCAP takes into account that majority of drivers are crap at it.
If you need a device to tell you that you are wandering out of your lane then you aren’t paying attention and shouldn’t be driving
 
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DenisM

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So they are choosing not be be at the front of the queue? (There are a couple of articles that suggest that Ineos are in no hurry to have the Grenadier tested).

The NCAP website implies that any testing of the Grenadier may be a long time away or potentially never. https://www.euroncap.com/en/about-euro-ncap/the-car-selection-explained/ As members choose what will be tested, it seems unlikely they will opt for a low volume semi-commercial vehicle.
There used be some videos of early crash testing of IG prototype bodies/chasses... the prototype pictured has a series of "bar code" type decals as well as yellow and black "targets" on the doors which I was told by an Ineos engineer back in Jan2021 (at the first "sit in and be driven" day) were affixed to all prototypes. Using high speed cameras the decals provided calibration points to determine crumple rates in laboratory crash testing. I read somewhere over a dozen such tests were conducted....
 

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DDG

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I own a 2022 Defender 110 V8. I fully recognize that it’s a luxury SUV and not the rugged, utilitarian 4x4 of old. But it is an incredibly stiff and solid structure. After seeing that YouTube video, I am very impressed! That was nuts.
 

AnD3rew

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I'm sceptical of some later (not all) ANCAP requirements. One cannot take account of all human frailties... There's a deal of technological "determinism" going on trying to substitute electronic "Nannies" for personal responsibility. Drivers paying attention might be a good start. Dashcam on YouTube is most instructive....
Newton's Laws of Motion indicate that a pedestrian surviving a collision with a moving body x30 times its mass is always going to be problematic...
I actually think they need to split the ratings and have 2 a crash rating and a “tech”/crash avoidance rating.
 

CheJ

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I actually think they need to split the ratings and have 2 a crash rating and a “tech”/crash avoidance rating.
Agree. I want to know how well the vehicle will protect my family in an accident and be able to directly compare vehicles. Whilst all these driver aids are a separate thing all together and should not weigh in on a crash rating.
 
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