Letter to Lynne Calder

[shakesc]

Thanks Tom, personally I would quite enjoy digging around an online manual (I need a life!).
The code reader I would buy given a chance.

 

[Baron von Teuchter]

Need to ask her about a new windshield supplier or an additional one (Gorilla Glass Opt, like Jeep)

You just prompted me to speak to a company in the UK who make aftermarket heated screens for motorsport use. I’ve bought screens from them for a few cars, Subarus, a Lotus and a mk2 escort rally car.

I’ve asked how many orders they’d need to do a run of grenadier screens.

 

[globalgregors]

I just got off the phone with Lynn again. I am really impressed with how seriously they are taking things.

The good news is the manual is imminent.

One or two caveats. The manual will essentially be a login to the IA system that the dealerships technicians use, which sounds great. However they have some concerns about uptake, see below. They don't want to simply open source the thing as that could lead to copyright issues and also mean lots of knock off cheap parts appearing which could damage the brand. (My words not hers)

Firstly, transferring the data from the existing program to a PDF format is way more complicated than you might think and therefore time consuming. Lynn really wants this to happen now, so web based it will be.

Secondly if every Grenadier owner wants the manual immediately it could present a few issues, the first of which is each user will need to have their own login, (you will need to provide your email and VIN number) automating this process will require a load of coding at the back end which is more time and cost, and she wants this done ASAP. So user logins will be created manually at IA, this will be a time consuming process, Lynn’s concern is that if all 20,000 owners sign up at once there will be long delays which takes us back to square one. We have been waiting long enough. I suggested to Lynn that if they charged a small fee for this then only those seriously intending to use the manual would actually sign up, she was keen for it to be free however as that was more in the spirit of the original promise. I can’t argue with that.
She asked me to ask you to only sign up for the manual if you actually want /need / intend to use it. If we all stampede for it at the same time it will be like a run on the bank- no one will get anything. If demand is measured those who need it could be browsing the manual in a couple of weeks time.

They also have concerns about adding thousands of users to their existing system, can the system cope with the extra traffic? They are looking at this right now and will hopefully be ready to roll this out in the next couple of weeks. She kindly offered to let me try it out next week, so hopefully I’ll get a login and be able to have a play around with it. I’ll report back to both you guys and to IA on its usability from a home users point of view.

Thirdly
The intention is that for existing owners the manual will be free, but IA have not ruled out charging new buyers a subscription fee. They may end up developing an App at some point but again they don't want to add any more delays to a long delayed project. They are still working on this so don't hold me to that….

Next topic is the code reader. Following my conversation with Lynn a couple of weeks ago her team have reached out to AUTEL and discussions are taking place. Nothing has been agreed as yet but it is her intention to roll out something as soon as possible. It may not be AUTEL who they end up partnering up with, I hope it is as thats the one I have! She doesn’t know as yet how long it would take AUTEL to roll out an update but they are having further meetings in the next couple of weeks. What needs to happen is IA supply AUTEL with data and Autel write the code and then roll it out.. I have no idea how long that will take but she is committed to getting this done.

And finally we talked about parts availability. They are building a more robust system and encouraging dealers to stock more parts. Being a new vehicle they were unsure what demand would be like and now that it has been around for a while they are getting a better idea. They are also giving their regional centres more autonomy and that will also improve delivery. She was keen to point out that it costs them way more if they have to express freight individual parts around the world; it’s in their interest to hold parts at regional centres and dealerships. This is what they are doing.

I’m pretty pleased with the response, this only confirms my belief that they are taking the issues we raised seriously and are acting fast. Its what we wanted to hear.

Absolutely getting by without it but this is great news. Thank you @Tom D for the advocacy and update.

 

[IslandFalconer]

I just got off the phone with Lynn again. I am really impressed with how seriously they are taking things.

The good news is the manual is imminent.

One or two caveats. The manual will essentially be a login to the IA system that the dealerships technicians use, which sounds great. However they have some concerns about uptake, see below. They don't want to simply open source the thing as that could lead to copyright issues and also mean lots of knock off cheap parts appearing which could damage the brand. (My words not hers)

Firstly, transferring the data from the existing program to a PDF format is way more complicated than you might think and therefore time consuming. Lynn really wants this to happen now, so web based it will be.

Secondly if every Grenadier owner wants the manual immediately it could present a few issues, the first of which is each user will need to have their own login, (you will need to provide your email and VIN number) automating this process will require a load of coding at the back end which is more time and cost, and she wants this done ASAP. So user logins will be created manually at IA, this will be a time consuming process, Lynn’s concern is that if all 20,000 owners sign up at once there will be long delays which takes us back to square one. We have been waiting long enough. I suggested to Lynn that if they charged a small fee for this then only those seriously intending to use the manual would actually sign up, she was keen for it to be free however as that was more in the spirit of the original promise. I can’t argue with that.
She asked me to ask you to only sign up for the manual if you actually want /need / intend to use it. If we all stampede for it at the same time it will be like a run on the bank- no one will get anything. If demand is measured those who need it could be browsing the manual in a couple of weeks time.

They also have concerns about adding thousands of users to their existing system, can the system cope with the extra traffic? They are looking at this right now and will hopefully be ready to roll this out in the next couple of weeks. She kindly offered to let me try it out next week, so hopefully I’ll get a login and be able to have a play around with it. I’ll report back to both you guys and to IA on its usability from a home users point of view.

Thirdly
The intention is that for existing owners the manual will be free, but IA have not ruled out charging new buyers a subscription fee. They may end up developing an App at some point but again they don't want to add any more delays to a long delayed project. They are still working on this so don't hold me to that….

Next topic is the code reader. Following my conversation with Lynn a couple of weeks ago her team have reached out to AUTEL and discussions are taking place. Nothing has been agreed as yet but it is her intention to roll out something as soon as possible. It may not be AUTEL who they end up partnering up with, I hope it is as thats the one I have! She doesn’t know as yet how long it would take AUTEL to roll out an update but they are having further meetings in the next couple of weeks. What needs to happen is IA supply AUTEL with data and Autel write the code and then roll it out.. I have no idea how long that will take but she is committed to getting this done.

And finally we talked about parts availability. They are building a more robust system and encouraging dealers to stock more parts. Being a new vehicle they were unsure what demand would be like and now that it has been around for a while they are getting a better idea. They are also giving their regional centres more autonomy and that will also improve delivery. She was keen to point out that it costs them way more if they have to express freight individual parts around the world; it’s in their interest to hold parts at regional centres and dealerships. This is what they are doing.

I’m pretty pleased with the response, this only confirms my belief that they are taking the issues we raised seriously and are acting fast. Its what we wanted to hear.

Software update?

 

[matt_grenadier]

I just got off the phone with Lynn again. I am really impressed with how seriously they are taking things.

The good news is the manual is imminent.

One or two caveats. The manual will essentially be a login to the IA system that the dealerships technicians use, which sounds great. However they have some concerns about uptake, see below. They don't want to simply open source the thing as that could lead to copyright issues and also mean lots of knock off cheap parts appearing which could damage the brand. (My words not hers)

Firstly, transferring the data from the existing program to a PDF format is way more complicated than you might think and therefore time consuming. Lynn really wants this to happen now, so web based it will be.

Secondly if every Grenadier owner wants the manual immediately it could present a few issues, the first of which is each user will need to have their own login, (you will need to provide your email and VIN number) automating this process will require a load of coding at the back end which is more time and cost, and she wants this done ASAP. So user logins will be created manually at IA, this will be a time consuming process, Lynn’s concern is that if all 20,000 owners sign up at once there will be long delays which takes us back to square one. We have been waiting long enough. I suggested to Lynn that if they charged a small fee for this then only those seriously intending to use the manual would actually sign up, she was keen for it to be free however as that was more in the spirit of the original promise. I can’t argue with that.
She asked me to ask you to only sign up for the manual if you actually want /need / intend to use it. If we all stampede for it at the same time it will be like a run on the bank- no one will get anything. If demand is measured those who need it could be browsing the manual in a couple of weeks time.

They also have concerns about adding thousands of users to their existing system, can the system cope with the extra traffic? They are looking at this right now and will hopefully be ready to roll this out in the next couple of weeks. She kindly offered to let me try it out next week, so hopefully I’ll get a login and be able to have a play around with it. I’ll report back to both you guys and to IA on its usability from a home users point of view.

Thirdly
The intention is that for existing owners the manual will be free, but IA have not ruled out charging new buyers a subscription fee. They may end up developing an App at some point but again they don't want to add any more delays to a long delayed project. They are still working on this so don't hold me to that….

Next topic is the code reader. Following my conversation with Lynn a couple of weeks ago her team have reached out to AUTEL and discussions are taking place. Nothing has been agreed as yet but it is her intention to roll out something as soon as possible. It may not be AUTEL who they end up partnering up with, I hope it is as thats the one I have! She doesn’t know as yet how long it would take AUTEL to roll out an update but they are having further meetings in the next couple of weeks. What needs to happen is IA supply AUTEL with data and Autel write the code and then roll it out.. I have no idea how long that will take but she is committed to getting this done.

And finally we talked about parts availability. They are building a more robust system and encouraging dealers to stock more parts. Being a new vehicle they were unsure what demand would be like and now that it has been around for a while they are getting a better idea. They are also giving their regional centres more autonomy and that will also improve delivery. She was keen to point out that it costs them way more if they have to express freight individual parts around the world; it’s in their interest to hold parts at regional centres and dealerships. This is what they are doing.

I’m pretty pleased with the response, this only confirms my belief that they are taking the issues we raised seriously and are acting fast. Its what we wanted to hear.

Excellent, Tom! How do I sign up?

 

[MurphyMurph]

Great news, thanks for taking this on, Tom. Was there any discussion around the HVAC system and associated issues?

 

[Tenac]

So I'm going to be that guy..... Here are some of my 2 cents to the responses.

"One or two caveats. The manual will essentially be a login to the IA system that the dealerships technicians use, which sounds great. However they have some concerns about uptake, see below. They don't want to simply open source the thing as that could lead to copyright issues and also mean lots of knock off cheap parts appearing which could damage the brand. (My words not hers)" I won't touch this one since its Tom's words there, but Auto supply stores that have full part break downs via web doesn't lead to the issues I think is being called out here.

Firstly, transferring the data from the existing program to a PDF format is way more complicated than you might think and therefore time consuming. Lynn really wants this to happen now, so web based it will be. I think web based would be really smart move here.

"Secondly if every Grenadier owner wants the manual immediately it could present a few issues, the first of which is each user will need to have their own login, (you will need to provide your email and VIN number) automating this process will require a load of coding at the back end which is more time and cost, and she wants this done ASAP. So user logins will be created manually at IA, this will be a time consuming process, Lynn’s concern is that if all 20,000 owners sign up at once there will be long delays which takes us back to square one. We have been waiting long enough. I suggested to Lynn that if they charged a small fee for this then only those seriously intending to use the manual would actually sign up, she was keen for it to be free however as that was more in the spirit of the original promise. I can’t argue with that.
She asked me to ask you to only sign up for the manual if you actually want /need / intend to use it. If we all stampede for it at the same time it will be like a run on the bank- no one will get anything. If demand is measured those who need it could be browsing the manual in a couple of weeks time. "

A lot to unpack here. But there would be zero need for customers to use the instance that the tech's would be using. If their "system" is overwhelmed by logins or generation of logins I would FOR FREE help them build a serverless affordable process to circumvent their worries. That worry would exist if still running window server 98. To build this would be very limited of required coding. Depending on the source they are building from which wouldn't really matter there are already developed methods, they don't need to reinvent the wheel to create a S3 bucket with a data base. Chat GTP can do it today. Seems like such trivial reasoning to still not have something out for customers, I'd rather of just heard he we are still developing the text and images because we are still learning the vehicle too......

"They also have concerns about adding thousands of users to their existing system, can the system cope with the extra traffic? They are looking at this right now and will hopefully be ready to roll this out in the next couple of weeks. She kindly offered to let me try it out next week, so hopefully I’ll get a login and be able to have a play around with it. I’ll report back to both you guys and to IA on its usability from a home users point of view." They must be spending pennies on tech, heck I'd say one of their factory IPC's could handle the traffic of such a small audience base.

"Thirdly
The intention is that for existing owners the manual will be free, but IA have not ruled out charging new buyers a subscription fee. They may end up developing an App at some point but again they don't want to add any more delays to a long delayed project. They are still working on this so don't hold me to that…. "
Nothing is owned and pay your subscriptions. lol

Next topic is the code reader. Following my conversation with Lynn a couple of weeks ago her team have reached out to AUTEL and discussions are taking place. Nothing has been agreed as yet but it is her intention to roll out something as soon as possible. It may not be AUTEL who they end up partnering up with, I hope it is as thats the one I have! She doesn’t know as yet how long it would take AUTEL to roll out an update but they are having further meetings in the next couple of weeks. What needs to happen is IA supply AUTEL with data and Autel write the code and then roll it out.. I have no idea how long that will take but she is committed to getting this done.

And finally we talked about parts availability. They are building a more robust system and encouraging dealers to stock more parts. Being a new vehicle they were unsure what demand would be like and now that it has been around for a while they are getting a better idea. They are also giving their regional centres more autonomy and that will also improve delivery. She was keen to point out that it costs them way more if they have to express freight individual parts around the world; it’s in their interest to hold parts at regional centres and dealerships. This is what they are doing.

I’m pretty pleased with the response, this only confirms my belief that they are taking the issues we raised seriously and are acting fast. Its what we wanted to hear.
The rest of this sounds great.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

You just prompted me to speak to a company in the UK who make aftermarket heated screens for motorsport use. I’ve bought screens from them for a few cars, Subarus, a Lotus and a mk2 escort rally car.

I’ve asked how many orders they’d need to do a run of grenadier screens.

Would be interested to hear what they say - I have a heated garage, but many days in the upper Midwest in the winter it’s colder here than at the North Pole. Heated windscreen (and headlights) would be brilliant for cold climates (OK - and a steering wheel).

 

[MattA]

Gotta say it’s a very positive and somewhat surprising progression
Things are certainly looking better for long term ownership

 

[Shopkeep]

Need to ask her about a new windshield supplier or an additional one (Gorilla Glass Opt, like Jeep)

XYG are now making windscreens for the Grenadier.

 

[Shopkeep]

Nice work @Tom D.

If they want to throttle down the numbers initially signing up to manual access they could do it by VIN in six or twelve month blocks, i.e. the vehicles made in the first 6 months of production get first access then days/weeks/months later the next 6 month block etc. etc.

 

[Tazzieman]

Well done Tom.
And Lyn has delivered on her promise as I predicted. She's one of us at heart.

 

[HereinDaRockies]

Well done Tom.
And Lyn has delivered on her promise as I predicted. She's one of us at heart.

Not delivered yet.. but the follow up is promising

 

[RYAustralia]

You just prompted me to speak to a company in the UK who make aftermarket heated screens for motorsport use. I’ve bought screens from them for a few cars, Subarus, a Lotus and a mk2 escort rally car.

I’ve asked how many orders they’d need to do a run of grenadier screens.

Count me in for one - once I’ve moved to New Zealand next year. No need for it in the tropics of Australia for the rest of this year though.

 

[RYAustralia]

Fantastic update Tom. I was already very happy with my grenadier and doubly so now knowing the company listens to its customer base. I don’t know any large automotive maker that has responded honestly and been engaged with its customers like this in recent times. Back in the day rolls Royce, Bentley would probably be the only ones I can think of that would listen to customers. Can’t think of any others, and RR / Bentley both ceased to be the same after they were sold to deep pocketed conglomerates.

 

[Zimm]

When one looks at how far off fulfillment these small concessions are, it's pretty clear the past couple years fell on deaf ears. No hardware issue remediation was even mentioned. In fact, there was actually nothing in the pipeline to rectify any issues at all. All this time people here were discussing when Ineos is going to address things, and... they simply weren't.

I suggest people with problems keep screaming. If you have serious issues and you want them rectified, and they haven't even thought thru an online manual that a mere 50000 members will only access if they have an issue, (i.e. it's not 1990, there's not gonna be a denial of service from a mob logging on) normal warranty service for things that cost money is going to be a piecemeal slog thru deep shit.

Sorry.

 

[RYAustralia]

When one looks at how far off fulfillment these small concessions are, it's pretty clear the past couple years fell on deaf ears. No hardware issue remediation was even mentioned. In fact, there was actually nothing in the pipeline to rectify any issues at all. All this time people here were discussing when Ineos is going to address things, and... they simply weren't.

I suggest people with problems keep screaming. If you have serious issues and you want them rectified, and they haven't even thought thru an online manual that a mere 50000 members will only access if they have an issue, (i.e. it's not 1990, there's not gonna be a denial of service from a mob logging on) normal warranty service for things that cost money is going to be a piecemeal slog thru deep shit.

Sorry.

It would be interesting to know how many of the 20,000 owners mentioned in the conversation have problems and how this compares to normal industry stats. I know many products that are premium and that have failed spectacularly but only for some customers and not all. I mention s examples my current iPhone 16 Pro. Dog of a phone, 2 replacements and multiple software updates and only now nearly a year on is it working as advertised. Second example Siemens CT scanner. Dangerous glitches on biopsy mode, so stoped doing biopsies on it awaiting a fix, 2 years later Siemens said it was end of line and would I like to buy the new model which doesn’t have this glitch. I bought a Philips CT scanner instead. Doesn’t mean Apple and Siemens are bad companies, just means they are too big or it is too costly to deal with EVERY problem when only small numbers are affected. Hence my question. Of the 20,000 sold, how many have serious problems and how does this compare to the industry? Mine has had glitches but probably no more than any other vehicle I’ve bought new. My Peugeot 106 GTi blowing up engine in month two, or my BMW X6 having a major failure in every electronic system on month one are examples over the years. Do I think Peugeot or BMW make bad cars. No. I do think they have problems occasionally and the character of the company is how they fix them. Time will tell with regards Ineos as to their character I guess. And yes, I am thankful that I’m one of the lucky ones who has a very good service department, and a pretty well behaved grenadier.

 

[bigleonski]

It would be interesting to know how many of the 20,000 owners mentioned in the conversation have problems and how this compares to normal industry stats. I know many products that are premium and that have failed spectacularly but only for some customers and not all. I mention s examples my current iPhone 16 Pro. Dog of a phone, 2 replacements and multiple software updates and only now nearly a year on is it working as advertised. Second example Siemens CT scanner. Dangerous glitches on biopsy mode, so stoped doing biopsies on it awaiting a fix, 2 years later Siemens said it was end of lien and would I like to buy the new model which doesn’t have this glitch. I bought a Philips CT scanner instead. Doesn’t mean Apple and Siemens are bad companies, just means they are too big or it is too costly to deal with EVERY problem when only small numbers are affected. Hence my question. Of the 20,000 sold, how many have serious problems and how does this compare to the industry? Mine has had glitches but probably no more than any other vehicle I’ve bought new. My Peugeot 106 GTi blowing up engine in month two, or my BMW X6 having a major failure in every electronic system on month one are examples over the years. Do I think Peugeot or BMW make bad cars. No. I do think they have problems occasionally and the character of the company is how they fix them. Town will tell with regards Ineos as to their character I guess. And yes, I am thankful that I’m one of the lucky ones who has a very good service department, and a pretty well behaved grenadier.

Yeah as you know, everything gets shared at a place lile this, and things can feel like a major or common issue because squeeky wheels get the most grease.
It’s a bit like crime discussion on a community facebook group. Every little thing makes the pages to the point where you think you have a massive crime problem in your area and that’s all people seem to talk about, when in reality it’s just a few issues flogged to death.

Some people are having a few problems, most of us don’t. But people tend to gwt noisy about problems and in the main stay silent when things are just fine.
I feel lucky that I haven’t had too many issues and none of them important in the grand scheme of things. But I guarantee that others have had the same issues and really feel put off by them. Such is life, and if we all reacted the same way life would be a bit boring I suppose.

 

[RYAustralia]

Yeah as you know, everything gets shared at a place lile this, and things can feel like a major or common issue because squeeky wheels get the most grease.
It’s a bit like crime discussion on a community facebook group. Every little thing makes the pages to the point where you think you have a massive crime problem in your area and that’s all people seem to talk about, when in reality it’s just a few issues flogged to death.

Some people are having a few problems, most of us don’t. But people tend to gwt noisy about problems and in the main stay silent when things are just fine.
I feel lucky that I haven’t had too many issues and none of them important in the grand scheme of things. But I guarantee that others have had the same issues and really feel put off by them. Such is life, and if we all reacted the same way life would be a bit boring I suppose.

PS. I know what you mean about crime reporting EXCEPT I would highlight North Queensland which actually does have a serious youth car theft and joyriding problem. Worst I’ve ever seen after living in Scotland, England, New Zealand, Mexico and many other parts of Australia. Only protection locally appears to be to have a manual transmission car and block in your other cars. Seems local crims can’t drive manual shifters.

100% agree with you on forums amplifying complaints to make them seem universal when in reality they are not - but also serving to highlight and help solve common issues.

 

[landmannnn]

@Tom D Great work!