Land Rover feeling the Heat?

[ADVAW8S]

Ouch,...

For August the Geman KBA just lists 10 new Grenadier registrations for M1 cars. and 2 "others". Ending up with 408 in 2025, yet.
The N1 numbers will be published in a few days.

15 in the UK (23 in 08/2024).

330 New Defender in Germany in August, 2,763 in 2025, yet.

AWo

I appreciate you sharing number but it got me thinking about statistics. When sharing, why are we comparing Different time horizons for both models. Basically comparing a vehicle that's been on road for 2 years versus 5. Wouldn't it be more prudent to share numbers of same time period. Not saying the picture would be different but it gives an apple to apple comparison. Another example would be average number of vehicles sold for all dealerships. I looked and saw 85 JLR dealerships in Germany, they sold 330 new defenders or average of 3.88 new defenders per dealer. Ineos has one dealership, I believe in Germany, so 12. Now I know the response, well that doesn't make a whole lot of sense because all the German purchases could have gone to one JLR dealership. Great point, thanks. But using the same assumptions, if Ineos had 85 dealerships, then they would have sold 1020 Grenadiers. I think we need to equalize the numbers before trying to formulate a story. I also get it, 12 vehicles will not keep the lights on for long. But there is a long runway before we can call something a failure or success

 

[Phobiac]

5,500 units a year is over 1/3 of the 2022 Defender sales figures (a number that was down 18% over 2021) in the US. Even at that low of an annual production, that's a substantial possible loss of customer base

Comparing last year's mix to where they are CYTD August 2025 they are down 3% in mix with Defender, but the sales pace is stronger than last year and most likely will end the year with ~30K units, better than last year, but mix of Defenders still down overall for them. Might be the IG effect helping as well as hurting.

 

[landmannnn]

I appreciate you sharing number but it got me thinking about statistics. When sharing, why are we comparing Different time horizons for both models. Basically comparing a vehicle that's been on road for 2 years versus 5. Wouldn't it be more prudent to share numbers of same time period. Not saying the picture would be different but it gives an apple to apple comparison. Another example would be average number of vehicles sold for all dealerships. I looked and saw 85 JLR dealerships in Germany, they sold 330 new defenders or average of 3.88 new defenders per dealer. Ineos has one dealership, I believe in Germany, so 12. Now I know the response, well that doesn't make a whole lot of sense because all the German purchases could have gone to one JLR dealership. Great point, thanks. But using the same assumptions, if Ineos had 85 dealerships, then they would have sold 1020 Grenadiers. I think we need to equalize the numbers before trying to formulate a story. I also get it, 12 vehicles will not keep the lights on for long. But there is a long runway before we can call something a failure or success

I am not sure @AWo is commenting on success or failure.

Actually the ND has become JLRs biggest seller, not for its capability but because it has become the "go to" for the wealthy middle classes.

Incidentally first shown to the public in 2012.

Well done to JLR.

 

[ADVAW8S]

I am not sure @AWo is commenting on success or failure.

Actually the ND has become JLRs biggest seller, not for its capability but because it has become the "go to" for the wealthy middle classes.

Incidentally first shown to the public in 2012.

Well done to JLR.

I agree, I don't think he is saying it as a success or failure. My comment was more of we have a long way to go before we can call it a success or failure.

Of I remember correctly, when it was first shown in 2012 known as DC100 concept, the public and press laughed at the design and question if this was a joke. "While the initial public reaction was a disaster, the DC100 served its purpose of testing the waters. Land Rover's design team took the criticism to heart and confirmed in 2014 that the new Defender would look nothing like the DC100. The new, third-generation Defender, which debuted in 2019"

 

[landmannnn]

I agree, I don't think he is saying it as a success or failure. My comment was more of we have a long way to go before we can call it a success or failure.

Of I remember correctly, when it was first shown in 2012 known as DC100 concept, the public and press laughed at the design and question if this was a joke. "While the initial public reaction was a disaster, the DC100 served its purpose of testing the waters. Land Rover's design team took the criticism to heart and confirmed in 2014 that the new Defender would look nothing like the DC100. The new, third-generation Defender, which debuted in 2019"

And of course the DC100 isn't like the ND.

 

[LabRat]

Success or failure should be on JLR's mind though - the ND, at least in the US, cannibalized Disco 5 sales. I rarely see a new Disco but NDs are a dime a dozen.

 

[MattA]

5 years without any major updates or new model releases shows the success of the ND
2 very different cars so not sure why sales would be compared anyway, LR has also stated multiple times they are moving away from the 4wd market and towards the luxury vehicles market al be it still a very capable 4wd

 

[AWo]

I appreciate you sharing number but it got me thinking about statistics. When sharing, why are we comparing Different time horizons for both models. Basically comparing a vehicle that's been on road for 2 years versus 5. Wouldn't it be more prudent to share numbers of same time period. Not saying the picture would be different but it gives an apple to apple comparison. Another example would be average number of vehicles sold for all dealerships. I looked and saw 85 JLR dealerships in Germany, they sold 330 new defenders or average of 3.88 new defenders per dealer. Ineos has one dealership, I believe in Germany, so 12. Now I know the response, well that doesn't make a whole lot of sense because all the German purchases could have gone to one JLR dealership. Great point, thanks. But using the same assumptions, if Ineos had 85 dealerships, then they would have sold 1020 Grenadiers. I think we need to equalize the numbers before trying to formulate a story. I also get it, 12 vehicles will not keep the lights on for long. But there is a long runway before we can call something a failure or success

Just because of the first post in that thread.

Not comparing does not change the numbers on either side. I can leave the ND numbers aside, if preferred.

AWo

 

[landmannnn]

Just because of the first post in that thread.

Not comparing does not change the numbers on either side. I cal leave the ND numbers adide,vif preferred.

AWo

Good idea. Land Rover"s heat is felt somewhere else.