Land Rover feeling the Heat?

[Magical Mystery Tours]

I don't understand the whole discussion. The Grenadier is what it is and the ND is what it is. Comparing the two always leads in the wrong direction. I don't see any competition between the two, as the clientele that uses these vehicles is very different. It doesn't matter who sells more units. One thing is clear: JLR wants to advertise that customers see the ND as a continuation of the tradition of the old Defender. But that's completely wrong, unless we jump on that bandwagon and compare the Grenadier with the ND. Advertising can claim a lot, whether you believe it is up to you.
Let's look at it from a different angle: since I started driving the Grenadier, I've noticed that drivers of old Defenders greet me when we meet and we even strike up a conversation if we happen to park somewhere together. This circle also extends to other vehicles when we “upgrade” in the spring, i.e. when we stow all the boxes and things we “need” for an overland tour back in, on and around the vehicle. Then we “know” that we have similar setups, and it doesn't matter which vehicle we drive - roughly speaking. . Of course, we also talk about our vehicles, but mostly it's about where we've been and where we want to go and what experiences we've had. That's what makes it special. So it's not so much the shape and details of our vehicles that connect us, but what we do with them. Sometimes the roof load is more interesting than the vehicle underneath ;-) I had my first encounter with an ND “in the wild” shortly after its market launch in the south of France. At that time, there was no talk of the Grenadier. The encounter took place in front of a hotel. The two people who got out of the ND already showed which clientele JLR wanted to address in the future: he was wearing a suit, she a “fur coat” and hard-shell suitcases were unloaded from the vehicle, including a cosmetics case. No, that's not my world and never has been. I preferred the Queen in a Defender with wellies and a headscarf.
I love my Grenadier. Despite all the flaws and shortcomings it has already shown, I love this car. It's the best I've ever driven, even though maybe it's not the best on the market - that's a very inadequate subjective opinion anyway, because no one has ever driven or used everything that is or has been on the market. That's why I like to avoid superlatives for anything that is outside my world.

For me, the ND is nothing – just one SUV among many – even if it has Defender and Land Rover written on it ten times over. I drove a Mahindra CJ 340 for years and spent some time (despite a few kilometers) in a Land Rover Series III in the Congo. Yes - it was great fun and I learned a lot. Since the Mahindra, I've even been able to repair a starter motor, and the Land Rover Series III has made it possible for me to know at night where all the bones in my body are and what can hurt. And although I had to wait three times as long for spare parts for the Mahindra than for the Grenadier (the water pump, for example, was manufactured in the UK at the time, exclusively for export to India and had to be brought back to Europe first - waiting time 6 to 10 months), this vehicle was a lot of fun. If the trees in the forest were only a certain distance away, it went right through them. And it was allowed to pull 2 tons, which it did - albeit somewhat slowly. Well, that was a long time ago and today I don't want all that any more. The disadvantages that I overlooked back then weigh more heavily today. I'm also twice as old now.
So I compare my Grenadier with everything else I've driven: cars, off-road vehicles (I also had a Mercedes-Benz 250 GD Wolf in the army) and a camper van. I don't need to make comparisons with a vehicle that I'm not even considering borrowing.
You could also constantly draw comparisons between Mini (BMC) and Mini (BMW) and discuss them ...

Mahindra CJ - I had a red one

 

[vtgrenadier]

I'm not here trying to change anyone's mind, rather sharing my experiences with a wide swath of 4x4s:

Series Is and IIAs... had several. SWBs; LWBs; ambulance; pickup; wagons - all petrol; one an NADA 6. One 88" in particular was my daily for 5 years. Borderline uninspectable and in winter, snow would accumulate on my eyelashes. But, I loved it and rebuilt almost every part of it. Never once did it leave me stranded on the side of the road. Not once.

NAS Defenders... had several. Arles Blue x 2; Coniston; Portofino; Alpine (2x 110s). A continuance of my Series experience, but with fewer bruises. Winter experiences were nearly identical... many layers and wool hats worn. Corrosion magnets.

Tdi Defenders... had several. Hi Cap; canvas; wagon. Torque galore and still no heat, except in summer. Hibernate in winter due to aforementioned concerns with salt - not over any aversion to wearing wool.

Discovery/LR4s... had several. Manual and auto, including from new. Finally! Heat!! But no low range on the LR4? A harbinger of Land Rover's decline??

Land Cruisers... had two. An FJ60 and a 200. The latter, to this day, remains the nicest "thing" I've ever owned. No fuss, just fantastic both off-road and on, towing my heaviest vessel (a 20' Grady White) like it wasn't there. Oil changes only. Bloated and ugly, but comfy and confident from behind the wheel.

Toyota pickup... had two single-cab 4 cyls. One new in '94; one minty used '08 just last year. Fun times in both. Nothing like a bench seat to warm up your partner of 33 years.

Tacomas... had three; one supercharged. Never took off road, despite the first-year TRD Pro equipment. Just useful and reliable tools.

Jeep... had several. CJ8; 2x YJs; Cherokees; and now a JKU bought new. Half doors + HVAC from a company that knows how to throw air. 8 years on and still fun, even for a slushbox. Happy memories with smiling kids covered in sunscreen. A time and a place for the others, just not presently in my life. Would buy an '86 XJ in a heartbeat if the opportunity arose.

Vanagon Syncro tin tops... had two. Floated down the road like a '78 Coupe de Elegance. Perhaps the most comfortable ride of all vehicles owned, with gear changes reminiscent of vacuuming... long, but automaticit throws. Such cool, purposeful, and character-filled vehicles, but would have been a shame to ruin over Vermont winters, where they - along with my '83 Quattro - would have thrived.

BMW X5... had one in 2015. Worst. Vehicle. Ever.

Grenadier... too new to say much other than it has character and a sharp learning curve to avoid or accept day-to-day. My current go-to.

Rivian... had two. Currently running an R1T on days when I don't want to get the Grenadier in the soup. It's rained the last 22 weekends in a row.

ND Defender... had two. One word to describe both after nearly 50,000 miles: brilliant. In every regard. Zero maintenance, glitches, or nanny issues. Of all those vehicles listed above, still holds the record for furthest up the greasiest of wet Vermont clay trails. People can crap on it all they want and say that it's ruined Land Rover... until they own and live with one. Just like a Grenadier, the armchair militia have no idea what they're talking about. Again, this is just me... with the words "Land Rover" virtually tattooed on my grey matter since age 15.

 

[Jiman01]

I don't understand the whole discussion. The Grenadier is what it is and the ND is what it is. Comparing the two always leads in the wrong direction. I don't see any competition between the two, as the clientele that uses these vehicles is very different. It doesn't matter who sells more units. One thing is clear: JLR wants to advertise that customers see the ND as a continuation of the tradition of the old Defender. But that's completely wrong, unless we jump on that bandwagon and compare the Grenadier with the ND. Advertising can claim a lot, whether you believe it is up to you.
Let's look at it from a different angle: since I started driving the Grenadier, I've noticed that drivers of old Defenders greet me when we meet and we even strike up a conversation if we happen to park somewhere together. This circle also extends to other vehicles when we “upgrade” in the spring, i.e. when we stow all the boxes and things we “need” for an overland tour back in, on and around the vehicle. Then we “know” that we have similar setups, and it doesn't matter which vehicle we drive - roughly speaking. . Of course, we also talk about our vehicles, but mostly it's about where we've been and where we want to go and what experiences we've had. That's what makes it special. So it's not so much the shape and details of our vehicles that connect us, but what we do with them. Sometimes the roof load is more interesting than the vehicle underneath ;-) I had my first encounter with an ND “in the wild” shortly after its market launch in the south of France. At that time, there was no talk of the Grenadier. The encounter took place in front of a hotel. The two people who got out of the ND already showed which clientele JLR wanted to address in the future: he was wearing a suit, she a “fur coat” and hard-shell suitcases were unloaded from the vehicle, including a cosmetics case. No, that's not my world and never has been. I preferred the Queen in a Defender with wellies and a headscarf.
I love my Grenadier. Despite all the flaws and shortcomings it has already shown, I love this car. It's the best I've ever driven, even though maybe it's not the best on the market - that's a very inadequate subjective opinion anyway, because no one has ever driven or used everything that is or has been on the market. That's why I like to avoid superlatives for anything that is outside my world.

For me, the ND is nothing – just one SUV among many – even if it has Defender and Land Rover written on it ten times over. I drove a Mahindra CJ 340 for years and spent some time (despite a few kilometers) in a Land Rover Series III in the Congo. Yes - it was great fun and I learned a lot. Since the Mahindra, I've even been able to repair a starter motor, and the Land Rover Series III has made it possible for me to know at night where all the bones in my body are and what can hurt. And although I had to wait three times as long for spare parts for the Mahindra than for the Grenadier (the water pump, for example, was manufactured in the UK at the time, exclusively for export to India and had to be brought back to Europe first - waiting time 6 to 10 months), this vehicle was a lot of fun. If the trees in the forest were only a certain distance away, it went right through them. And it was allowed to pull 2 tons, which it did - albeit somewhat slowly. Well, that was a long time ago and today I don't want all that any more. The disadvantages that I overlooked back then weigh more heavily today. I'm also twice as old now.
So I compare my Grenadier with everything else I've driven: cars, off-road vehicles (I also had a Mercedes-Benz 250 GD Wolf in the army) and a camper van. I don't need to make comparisons with a vehicle that I'm not even considering borrowing.
You could also constantly draw comparisons between Mini (BMC) and Mini (BMW) and discuss them ...

View attachment 7896550
Mahindra CJ - I had a red one

Respectfully, I disagree that they are not comparable / different markets. I owned a ND and IMHO they are both adventure capable trucks that go about their tasks in very different ways. Look also at the aftermarket of roof racks, lights, awnings, exterior fuel/gear storage between the two..very similar.

Around my area, ND owners are definitely not the suit/fur wearing types. Those kinds of people drive RR Sports, RR, or the Autobiography in the LR line up.

I actually really liked my ND, but I decided on the Grenadier because I felt, as Randcliffe did, that it was too pretty, tech-based, and might require significant expense to keep her running over a 10-15yr. I normally keep vehicles for @10yrs, so the INEOS marketing resonated with me.

With that said, IMO the reason the INEOS might not appeal to those who are shopping for an ND, is because the Grenadier is a new vehicle/company. Unless this truck really calls you, to the point you’re willing to risk the company failing, new model growing pains, limited dealership support, etc.., a sane person (not us) would never consider the risk/benefit worth it. And if we’re being honest, the ND is a more aesthetically polished vehicle with better road manners and for 90% of us, equal off-road capabilities.

Like other ND to Grenadier converts, I had zero issues with my ND. Compared that to the Grenadier, HVAC, fuel/check-engine light, random plugs that fly off (by the windshield wipers). I get why and fixed all of it, but I like to tinker. I think the average person spending $80-95k on a vehicle is not like that and has no desire to deal with “issues”.

I’d consider my wife a typical consumer and when I made the decision to go Grenadier, and especially when we got out of my ND to look/test drive the Grenadier I’d been waiting 2yrs for…she said, why is it $90k? You're ND is so much nicer inside, drives/handles better, with much better on-road performance (HP, braking, turning, acceleration) for @ the same price. I told her its all the things you can’t see that make it expensive and she just rolled her eyes🫩

Anyway, those are my thoughts from someone who’s experienced both ecosystems. Like most here, I love my truck. Throw in a repair manual and ability to clear service codes from home and I’d be a happy camper. At this point, unless I wreck mine or INEOS offers a manual transmission, which will never happen, I hope to keep this truck for a long time.

 

[lightning]

"For me, the ND is nothing – just one SUV among many – even if it has Defender and Land Rover written on it ten times over. "

A little unfair, the new Defender is a superb off road vehicle and quite a lot of owners are successfully Overlanding in them.

But l agree it's aimed at a different market. Doesn't make it any less capable. LR spent five years developing the new Defender, the approach/departure angles, wading depth and other specifics that most owners will never test, are exceptional and in some cases better than the Grenadier.

The suspension is made to take more abuse (than other LR products) it's not just Discovery hardware as some have suggested. And it has better underbody protection particularly if you specify the uprated parts (which few do)

I would still rather have a Grenadier, and would swap my Defender for one tomorrow if the figures worked, but don't write off the Defender, it's a great vehicle.

Particularly the base specification 90/110 with steel wheels and no bling.

ln that specification it starts at £57,000. £8,000 cheaper than the cheapest two seat Grenadier. The Defender 110 is around £62,000 which is closer to the Grenadier price wise.