Is there a lithium drop in replacement?

[FlyingTexan]

If I wanted to replace my house battery with a lifepo is it possible? Everything else is stock. What size battery is it currently?

 

[anand]

In a word, no... More correctly, not in an ideal fashion.

The charging profile of our smart alternators will not appropriately or fully charge a LiFePO4 battery (or truly, anything that doesn't fit the pre-programmed charging profile of an EFB). So you'll need to introduce a DC-DC charger.

On the plus side, if you have the OEM dual battery set up there is an option that is very straight forward. Grab the RedArc 150Ah LiFePO4 battery and RedArc BCDC Alpha 50 DC-DC charger and then grab the @GPFACTOR mounts for both the battery and charger. I recently helped @TWExplor install this setup (granted, I made a DC-DC charger bracket for him because GP Factor didn't have one at the time). We were able to reuse the OEM house battery positive and negative cables, and utilized the OEM 5 outlet bus bar to be power distribution for the aux battery. Grabbing power to the DC-DC charger from the main battery was easily done by replacing the ZCASE fuse that normally lead to the SmartPass with an appropriately sized one and making a new power wire.

 

[IronCompass]

Yes, it is possible to replace your house battery with a LiFePO4 battery even if everything else is stock. However, you might need to adjust your charging system or install a DC-to-DC charger to ensure optimal charging and lifespan of the LiFePO4 battery.

 

[TheDocAUS]

MORE 4X4, in Australia, has just announced a bracket set allowing you to add a Redarc Alpha 25 or 50 and probably a Lithium aux battery (personally I would only go with the Alpha 50). 2 images shows a Lithium battery, but the brand is unclear (EDIT: I now believe it is an Invicta XERO battery, 100Ah or 120Ah). Perhaps that option is coming. I have seen that style of battery before, but cannot remember the brand name. Fairly sure it was a lithium brand.

The brackets work in the 5 seater, unknown if the brackets work in the 2 seater model (which is not sold in the US), as the vertical space under the battery box lid is less than the 5 seater. So 2 seater owners need to check before buying the bracket set.

The bracket set, a Redarc Alpha 50, multiple Midi fuses and a Lithium battery that fits under the seat, just made a Lithium aux battery option a lot easier to install.

Not sure if the group of Midi fuses holders have a busbar, as EATON BUSSMANN does offer a modular model with 2 to 6 individual output fuse holders (max 5 holders with this bracket). They could all be single fuse holders or a busbar configuration. It is a flexible design as I have some (not in the Grenadier). Some maybe single fuse holders and others combined using the busbar.

EATON BUSSMANN MODULAR FUSE HOLDER
Brochure on the EATON BUSSMANN fuse holders attached below. I am not 100% sure they are in these pictures, as third parties have copied the BUSSMANN design (but they do look like a BUSSMANN Midi fuse holder).

The MORE4X4 package is the brackets and you buy the fuse holders, to meet your needs. Just make sure the holders you buy fit into the holes on the brackets as Midi fuse holders can slightly vary in their length. The BUSSMANN are slightly longer than others.

Just a sample image showing you inside the BUSSMANN product.

 

[carlg007]

In a word, no... More correctly, not in an ideal fashion.

The charging profile of our smart alternators will not appropriately or fully charge a LiFePO4 battery (or truly, anything that doesn't fit the pre-programmed charging profile of an EFB). So you'll need to introduce a DC-DC charger.

On the plus side, if you have the OEM dual battery set up there is an option that is very straight forward. Grab the RedArc 150Ah LiFePO4 battery and RedArc BCDC Alpha 50 DC-DC charger and then grab the @GPFACTOR mounts for both the battery and charger. I recently helped @TWExplor install this setup (granted, I made a DC-DC charger bracket for him because GP Factor didn't have one at the time). We were able to reuse the OEM house battery positive and negative cables, and utilized the OEM 5 outlet bus bar to be power distribution for the aux battery. Grabbing power to the DC-DC charger from the main battery was easily done by replacing the ZCASE fuse that normally lead to the SmartPass with an appropriately sized one and making a new power wire.

I would love to see some photos of this installation!

 

[TheDocAUS]

Here is the same battery used above in the Grenadier, this time in a Prado 250 under the bonnet. I still cannot read the brand but the text talks about a Lithium battery up to 120Ah (max dimensions: 320L x 175W x 220H). So the INEOS battery maybe 120 Ah. EDIT: It is an Invicta XERO battery.

 

[Rusty_hombi]

Yes, it is possible to replace your house battery with a LiFePO4 battery even if everything else is stock. However, you might need to adjust your charging system or install a DC-to-DC charger to ensure optimal charging and lifespan of the LiFePO4 battery.

Please tell me, if i am wrong, but i checked that situation with CTEK, and they told me, this is not a problem at all.
The CTEK 120S can handle one EFB (Starter) and one LiFePo, and takes care about the charging procedure - at least that is what i was told. I replaced that EFB House Battery with a ECTIVE LC 150 Dual LiFePo, and it almost fits perfecly (just very minor shavings at the plastic foot on the door side).

 

[Logsplitter]

Please tell me, if i am wrong, but i checked that situation with CTEK, and they told me, this is not a problem at all.
The CTEK 120S can handle one EFB (Starter) and one LiFePo, and takes care about the charging procedure - at least that is what i was told. I replaced that EFB House Battery with a ECTIVE LC 150 Dual LiFePo, and it almost fits perfecly (just very minor shavings at the plastic foot on the door side).

I just took this from a Google search

Seems like you have to have a combined smartpass 120s and a D250se to charge a EFB starter and LiFePo battery house battery.

 

[Tazzieman]

The Enerdrive website has some useful info
"
Typical Lead Acid Charger Algorithm

In this charge phase the charger will hold the maximum voltage for the chosen battery and charge the battery with reduced current as the batteries internal resistance can’t accept the charge current at maximum output. Once the current reduces to approx ≤10 % of the chargers total output, it will then move to the float state. The absorption stage is also time based, if the charger is still in its absorption phase after 4 hours, the charger will automatically transition to the float stage. This generally happens if the charger is undersized for the battery bank or there are loads running on the system and not allowing the charger to reduce the current below the transition point.

Most, if not all, lead acid chargers have an equalization mode. On some chargers this mode may be automatic and can’t be turned off. Lithium batteries do not require any form of equalization. Applying an equalization charge of 15v+ to a lithium battery will damage the cells beyond repair.

The other function that lead acid chargers have is a “return to bulk” voltage. A 100% full lead acid battery’s voltage is approx 12.7v. Once the charger is in Float, it will maintain the battery at a pre-set voltage (normally between 13.3-13.8v subject to the battery type) and also support any loads running at the time. If the loads increase past the charger’s maximum output in float, then the battery voltage will start to reduce. Once the voltage reaches the “return to bulk” voltage, the charger will then start a new charge cycle and start re-charging the battery.

The “return to bulk” voltage setting in lead acid chargers is normally 12.5-12.7v. This voltage for a lithium battery is way too low. At this voltage the lithium battery will have been depleted to approx 10-15% state of charge. Lithium charge algorithms will normally set a return to bulk voltage of 13.1-13.2V. Just another reason that a standard lead acid charger doesn’t suit lithium batteries.

Some lead acid chargers “ping” the battery on startup to determine the voltage/resistance of the battery. Based on return information, the charger then determines what charge phase to start in. Because lithium will hold voltage above 13+v, some lead acid chargers will see this as a near full battery and enter into a float stage and bypass the charge stage all together.

You can use a lead acid charger on a lithium battery if you want, HOWEVER, you must NOT use a lead-acid charger if it has an automatic “equalisation mode” which cannot be permanently turned off. A lead-acid charger that can be set to charge no higher than 14.6v can be used for regular charging and then MUST be disconnected after the battery is fully charged. DO NOT leave the lead-acid charger connected to maintain or store the battery, because most will NOT maintain the proper voltage charge algorithm for lithium batteries and damage will occur to the battery that is not covered under battery warranty.

Ultimately, using a battery charger with a specific Lithium charge algorithm is the best option for maximum performance and lifespan of any lithium battery."

 

[parb]

I find the redarc 150 battery exceptionally expensive.
Any other choices that are more cost effective?
I see the (I assume Chinese) brand eco-worthy 150ah lifepo4 battery on Amazon for a fraction of the cost vs redarc. I know I need to buy the redarc bcdc alpha isolator and charger for it but it looks so much more cost effective.
Prism batteries and built-in bms. Deep cycling capable of you believe the ad.

Thoughts or advice?

 

[Rusty_hombi]

I just took this from a Google search

Seems like you have to have a combined smartpass 120s and a D250se to charge a EFB starter and LiFePo battery house battery.

This is the answer i got from CTEK:
Dear Martin

Thank you for contacting us!

A start battery should never be deeply discharged and should be capable of delivering high current for a short period of time.
The starter battery should be a Lead Acid battery designed for automotive applications. This does not affect the chemistry chosen for the Service battery.

Smartpass 120S is compatible with a LiFePo4 Lithium as a service battery battery.
In your case it is possible to replace.

 

[Logsplitter]

This is the answer i got from CTEK:
Dear Martin

Thank you for contacting us!

A start battery should never be deeply discharged and should be capable of delivering high current for a short period of time.
The starter battery should be a Lead Acid battery designed for automotive applications. This does not affect the chemistry chosen for the Service battery.

Smartpass 120S is compatible with a LiFePo4 Lithium as a service battery battery.
In your case it is possible to replace.
View attachment 7902868

OK I stand corrected. Must be ok if they say so.

 

[Tazzieman]

If you are in Australia and plan to sleep in your vehicle make sure you are aware of the new laws regarding installation of lithium batteries in habitable areas.
Sealed compartments , vents etc.

 

[Mohs 9]

The 120S loads with 120A:

That is quite a lot for a Li-Battery; typically it is 0.2 C, so in your case 150 x 0.2 = 30A. Anyway, check the battery specs and "Versuch macht klug".

 

[Rusty_hombi]

The 120S loads with 120A:
View attachment 7902870
That is quite a lot for a Li-Battery; typically it is 0.2 C, so in your case 150 x 0.2 = 30A. Anyway, check the battery specs and "Versuch macht klug".

Lifepo-Tech sheet says:
Max. Charging amp:
150 A

It CAN charge continiusly with 120 A, but it is not doing that all the time. And the BMS of the Battery shoudd take care, that the 120S is not trying to charge with 350A ...

 

[Mohs 9]

Is it the ECTIVE LC 150L?
https://www.ective.de/batterien/lithium-lifepo4-batterien/lc-150l-bt-12v-lfp#tab-attributes
They recommend 60 A for charging, with max 100 A.

 

[Rusty_hombi]

Is it the ECTIVE LC 150L?
https://www.ective.de/batterien/lithium-lifepo4-batterien/lc-150l-bt-12v-lfp#tab-attributes
They recommend 60 A for charging, with max 100 A.

No, the LC-150 Dual - Would work also as starter battery. But because i am not sure how the loads are spread, when you use a winch, i'll prefer to keep the EFB as startet ;-) But it can handle for starting 1650 A (for few seconds) Also low temp. charging till -20°. I need that for trips in scandinavia in the winter

 

[Tjeska]

Is this a possible candidate: https://eu.renogy.com/products/core...hosphate-battery-w-low-temperature-protection

 

[Rusty_hombi]

Is this a possible candidate: https://eu.renogy.com/products/core...hosphate-battery-w-low-temperature-protection

For sure you'd have to do many ajustments to make it fit somehow. It is bigger and needs to be held down from the top. So not really a drop in replacement.

 

[Tjeska]

Not a drop in replacement idd.
But there is the space for it, if i would have the spare time I would take a chance at it to work a system out in combination with some Victron gear.