Is a Grenadier right for you and my journey

[Mountain4x4]

I am sure many come here looking for some idea on whether this is the right vehicle for them. At 90K+ its a big decision. I did not find any solid posts on this, and I think its important. Lets get it out of the way, Ineos is not for 99.999% of all people. Just as my Power Wagon is not, or where I live, or where I am going to retire which involves off road driving, hauling your own trash, making your own power, hills that can require dual lockers in the winter, and so on.

My journey starts with driving Mitsubishi Monteros 1988- now. Mitsubishi ceased making SUVs around 2000 for the US market,( 3rd gen does not count as it is IRS) at the time they were about as tough as you could get. My 1996 has a solid axle swap and Rubicon 4:1 t case for example and is my main trail rig. For something newer I moved on to a 2005 Nissan Xterra, which while 1000X stronger then the prior generation but was still astonishingly brittle. I had to dump that thing. A few years of Austerity occurred, then building a home, 120hr work weeks during COVID...then finally we started getting back to wheeling and other hobbies. We bought a 2015 Four Runner TRD Pro, but its extensive use of plastic and staggering costs to modify quickly dampened my desire to go full on overlanding build. In 2017 I bought a Power Wagon, like the Grenadier something NO ONE drives. Big, lifted, extreme duty, twin lockers and winch, metal bumpers I have now towed up to 15K around off-road for work on off-road trails endlessly and used it for logging....a real aha moment for what a 4x4 could be. Despite being too big its hard to deny its 100X more capable then a 4 runner. Here we are 9 years later thinking, what next?

1. A Rubicon Jeep is still just too small, too common and has a ton of things that need upgraded, and not real comfortable.
2. The Bronco was PURE genius ! They gave us EVERYTHING we wanted in a 4x4, except they missed the boat on engineering we would find out. Its questionable if anything other then a 20,000.00 SAS will fix it.
3. Well equipped pick up options are exploding, and while I want a Gladiator or Quartermaster for retirement, and another Power Wagon for towing heavy equipment,( its used for a daily driver and sales and is at 165K already!) we want an SUV trail rig and daily driver for now, for my wife.
4. If its does not come with a solid axle, twin lockers and metal bumpers forget it. So what are you going to find with all that?

The "aha" moments came when we went to look at the Grenadier in person. Really, more of a lark as we could wait a couple of more years we decided to set an appointment while out of town for the holidays. After all, 90K is absurd! What were the aha moments?

1. Its the ONLY well equipped 4x4 that will tow our off road camper. Its a 16' or 23' total MDC which is pretty big, but I use it for working on our land and back country subdivision developments.
2. Living with an SAS is Soooooooo much nicer, and other then a Rubicon or an SAS what are you going to buy?
3. Built on Purpose. That slogan really rang with my wife, but makes sense. We prefer extreme duty, utilitarian vehicles. We do not drive cars. And the idea that this rig could live on forever as an off road trail rig.

Here are some tests for you, to see if this is the right choice, in my humble opinion.

1. Is this for commercial off road use at times? If yes its for you.
2. Are you just looking for something cool looking? Not for you. The looks are awesome, but the lack of comfort items will turn you off.
3. Have you SERIOUSLY considered a new Defender? This is not for you. The Defender is a delicate, un-reliable plastic street car, not in the same class. Forget the old Defender, which honestly was not either.
4. Price and Build a Defender. Did you vomit un-controllably? I mean a 100 screens asking what plastic trim, colors, rims, and leather details you want and nothing about off-road stuff. Then yes, its for you.
5. Do you primarily commute or live in a city? Not for you
6. Do your hobbies mostly involved the outdoors? Not just 4 wheeling or overlanding, but most of your hobbies? It may be for you.
7. Did you cross compare any AWD street cars? ( anything AWD is a street car) Then its not for you.
8. Have you owned other SAS rigs? Then this may be for you.
9. Have you changed at least a half dozen CV axles, or tie rods, along with drag links and a-arms on the trail? Then this may be for you.
10. Are you "that guy" that wants to drive something nutty and totally different then everyone else? Clearly, the Grenadier is for you.
11. Can you see beyond the big up front cost and see the long-term durability potential? Then this may be for you.
12. Do you clearly understand the weaknesses of the Grenadier? Gearing, tire size and sway bar discos and know you will have to upgrade? Then it may be fore you.
13. Do you have at least a 1000 miles of operation in a Low range? Then this might be for you.
14. Are you considering a lease? Then it is not for you.
15. Would you join other owners a week after taking delivery for a difficult off-road trip? Then this is for you.
16. Do you understand we are facing then end of our hobby and government lands access in the US, AU, UK and so on? And do you get involved in stopping it? Then this may be for you.
17. Do you like Subarus? Then this is definitely NOT for you! Remember these are my opinions
18. Do you think cool traction control settings will do anything for you? RUN another direction.

I will probably add to this over time. Hopefully my random ramblings help someone.

 

[j.ironfab]

I agree with most of this post but you are so wrong on the second gen Xterra being stronger than the 1st gen. 1st gen had much stronger diffs than the second gen and a more reliable drivetrain. I will die on this hill lol. You are spot on with the second gen Montero that was on of the best trucks I ever had. I swear mine ran on hate and neglect.

I am looking at the gren to fill two roles which for me is a light truck and an overlanding rig. I need something that will tow my car hauler and small utility trailer. I can't go back to an IFS truck there are just too many compromises offroad. I really like the idea of the gladiator but the tow rating and payload is not enough for my use case and I don't want to go to a full size truck.

My main hesitation with the gren is value for money. The more I read on the NAS trucks the more hesitant I get. Like no auto down on the windows my 01 nissan had that on the drivers at least. Little things like that add up in a 85K truck that I can't find any real details on the running gear besides people saying the marketing BS about purpose built. Like what is the ring and pinion size, spline count on the axles, are the king pins on the axles roller bearings, or bushings. So many unkowns on the drive train I hope get answered before I take delivery in Q1.

 

[[ Adam ]]

I am sure many come here looking for some idea on whether this is the right vehicle for them. At 90K+ its a big decision. I did not find any solid posts on this, and I think its important. Lets get it out of the way, Ineos is not for 99.999% of all people. Just as my Power Wagon is not, or where I live, or where I am going to retire which involves off road driving, hauling your own trash, making your own power, hills that can require dual lockers in the winter, and so on.

My journey starts with driving Mitsubishi Monteros 1988- now. Mitsubishi ceased making SUVs around 2000 for the US market,( 3rd gen does not count as it is IRS) at the time they were about as tough as you could get. My 1996 has a solid axle swap and Rubicon 4:1 t case for example and is my main trail rig. For something newer I moved on to a 2005 Nissan Xterra, which while 1000X stronger then the prior generation but was still astonishingly brittle. I had to dump that thing. A few years of Austerity occurred, then building a home, 120hr work weeks during COVID...then finally we started getting back to wheeling and other hobbies. We bought a 2015 Four Runner TRD Pro, but its extensive use of plastic and staggering costs to modify quickly dampened my desire to go full on overlanding build. In 2017 I bought a Power Wagon, like the Grenadier something NO ONE drives. Big, lifted, extreme duty, twin lockers and winch, metal bumpers I have now towed up to 15K around off-road for work on off-road trails endlessly and used it for logging....a real aha moment for what a 4x4 could be. Despite being too big its hard to deny its 100X more capable then a 4 runner. Here we are 9 years later thinking, what next?

1. A Rubicon Jeep is still just too small, too common and has a ton of things that need upgraded, and not real comfortable.
2. The Bronco was PURE genius ! They gave us EVERYTHING we wanted in a 4x4, except they missed the boat on engineering we would find out. Its questionable if anything other then a 20,000.00 SAS will fix it.
3. Well equipped pick up options are exploding, and while I want a Gladiator or Quartermaster for retirement, and another Power Wagon for towing heavy equipment,( its used for a daily driver and sales and is at 165K already!) we want an SUV trail rig and daily driver for now, for my wife.
4. If its does not come with a solid axle, twin lockers and metal bumpers forget it. So what are you going to find with all that?

The "aha" moments came when we went to look at the Grenadier in person. Really, more of a lark as we could wait a couple of more years we decided to set an appointment while out of town for the holidays. After all, 90K is absurd! What were the aha moments?

1. Its the ONLY well equipped 4x4 that will tow our off road camper. Its a 16' or 23' total MDC which is pretty big, but I use it for working on our land and back country subdivision developments.
2. Living with an SAS is Soooooooo much nicer, and other then a Rubicon or an SAS what are you going to buy?
3. Built on Purpose. That slogan really rang with my wife, but makes sense. We prefer extreme duty, utilitarian vehicles. We do not drive cars. And the idea that this rig could live on forever as an off road trail rig.

Here are some tests for you, to see if this is the right choice, in my humble opinion.

1. Is this for commercial off road use at times? If yes its for you.
2. Are you just looking for something cool looking? Not for you. The looks are awesome, but the lack of comfort items will turn you off.
3. Have you SERIOUSLY considered a new Defender? This is not for you. The Defender is a delicate, un-reliable plastic street car, not in the same class. Forget the old Defender, which honestly was not either.
4. Price and Build a Defender. Did you vomit un-controllably? I mean a 100 screens asking what plastic trim, colors, rims, and leather details you want and nothing about off-road stuff. Then yes, its for you.
5. Do you primarily commute or live in a city? Not for you
6. Do your hobbies mostly involved the outdoors? Not just 4 wheeling or overlanding, but most of your hobbies? It may be for you.
7. Did you cross compare any AWD street cars? ( anything AWD is a street car) Then its not for you.
8. Have you owned other SAS rigs? Then this may be for you.
9. Have you changed at least a half dozen CV axles, or tie rods, along with drag links and a-arms on the trail? Then this may be for you.
10. Are you "that guy" that wants to drive something nutty and totally different then everyone else? Clearly, the Grenadier is for you.
11. Can you see beyond the big up front cost and see the long-term durability potential? Then this may be for you.
12. Do you clearly understand the weaknesses of the Grenadier? Gearing, tire size and sway bar discos and know you will have to upgrade? Then it may be fore you.
13. Do you have at least a 1000 miles of operation in a Low range? Then this might be for you.
14. Are you considering a lease? Then it is not for you.
15. Would you join other owners a week after taking delivery for a difficult off-road trip? Then this is for you.
16. Do you understand we are facing then end of our hobby and government lands access in the US, AU, UK and so on? And do you get involved in stopping it? Then this may be for you.
17. Do you like Subarus? Then this is definitely NOT for you! Remember these are my opinions
18. Do you think cool traction control settings will do anything for you? RUN another direction.

I will probably add to this over time. Hopefully my random ramblings help someone.

The official Ineos Grenadier Pre-purchase survey.

 

[Andiamo]

I agree with most of this post but you are so wrong on the second gen Xterra being stronger than the 1st gen. 1st gen had much stronger diffs than the second gen and a more reliable drivetrain. I will die on this hill lol. You are spot on with the second gen Montero that was on of the best trucks I ever had. I swear mine ran on hate and neglect.

I am looking at the gren to fill two roles which for me is a light truck and an overlanding rig. I need something that will tow my car hauler and small utility trailer. I can't go back to an IFS truck there are just too many compromises offroad. I really like the idea of the gladiator but the tow rating and payload is not enough for my use case and I don't want to go to a full size truck.

My main hesitation with the gren is value for money. The more I read on the NAS trucks the more hesitant I get. Like no auto down on the windows my 01 nissan had that on the drivers at least. Little things like that add up in a 85K truck that I can't find any real details on the running gear besides people saying the marketing BS about purpose built. Like what is the ring and pinion size, spline count on the axles, are the king pins on the axles roller bearings, or bushings. So many unkowns on the drive train I hope get answered before I take delivery in Q1.

I cant' answer your other questions but our Grenadier has auto down windows. Or at least one touch down, have to hold the switch to bring the window back up.

 

[Shopkeep]

Well thought out post, can align with most of your opinions except:
5. I live in the centre of a city with 5 million people and use it daily traveling 25-35 miles. You will also see more old skool Defenders in highly affluent inner city suburbs than the country around here.
17. Nothing wrong with a Subaru! Maybe depends on which one, but my vehicle journey to the Grenadier included two WRXs. I think they are a car for contrarians just like the Grenadier, doing things slightly different with boxer engines and AWD.

 

[Mountain4x4]

When I went to the Nissan Event in my new Xterra they had 20 Gen 1 Xterras lined up at a Pizza Party Nissan paid for, with the front ends falling off. Engineers were examining them....I knew I had made a mistake at that point. Then on an easy trail, Hells revenge or maybe even Fins and Things someone's motor fell out.....To be fair they took care of the ridiculous 2 spider gear diff deffect after 2 years.

I agree, any one will mall crawl anything, but I feel like the Grenadier would be the most absurd. At least an old school Defender has no lockers, lots of weak components, and a brand that is mostly bling, bling.

By the way, if you like Subarus which I hate, I can tell you a fun Canadian horror story about old school and modified Subarus that came down with truck loads of parts to try and run the Rubicon. I lead the charge to stop them and encourage them to do some easier trails, but they did it and used every spare part in a couple of miles before turning around. It was a disaster, but talk about guts!

4wd 24-7 in Australia has a great series on US four wheeling where they shipped their rigs over and had a lot of fun. The moment 1000' down a trail when they realize every 10 feet has an obstacle you would never see in Australia was priceless. And realizing why we mostly run 37-38" tires here. Its an awesome series.

 

[j.ironfab]

I cant' answer your other questions but our Grenadier has auto down windows. Or at least one touch down, have to hold the switch to bring the window back up.

On all 4 or just driver? That's good news thought I read in another thread that they were not auto's. I already have a new car that misses the mark compared to it's segment but I still love it.

When I went to the Nissan Event in my new Xterra they had 20 Gen 1 Xterras lined up at a Pizza Party Nissan paid for, with the front ends falling off. Engineers were examining them....I knew I had made a mistake at that point. Then on an easy trail, Hells revenge or maybe even Fins and Things someone's motor fell out.....To be fair they took care of the ridiculous 2 spider gear diff deffect after 2 years.

I agree, any one will mall crawl anything, but I feel like the Grenadier would be the most absurd. At least an old school Defender has no lockers, lots of weak components, and a brand that is mostly bling, bling.

By the way, if you like Subarus which I hate, I can tell you a fun Canadian horror story about old school and modified Subarus that came down with truck loads of parts to try and run the Rubicon. I lead the charge to stop them and encourage them to do some easier trails, but they did it and used every spare part in a couple of miles before turning around. It was a disaster, but talk about guts!

4wd 24-7 in Australia has a great series on US four wheeling where they shipped their rigs over and had a lot of fun. The moment 1000' down a trail when they realize every 10 feet has an obstacle you would never see in Australia was priceless. And realizing why we mostly run 37-38" tires here. Its an awesome series.

2 spider gear was a second gen thing, the 1st gen used the 233b rear end is way stronger than anything they put into the 2nd gen. I wheel the crap out of my 1st gen and never had an issue with the drivetrain.

I probably won't put the gren through the abuse I have the X but I still want something that is overbuilt not just built to a price point.

 

[emax]

At 90K+ its a big decision.

I've seen such statements too often, and I think they are wrong.

If the car is wrong for you, you can sell it. So the risk is not a 90K thing, it may be around 5K or even less. And as INEOS will increase prices next year again, it might even be a -5K (i.e. minus 5K) thing - which it was indeed for me with my first Grenadier.

That's why there is no 90K decision imho.

 

[Andiamo]

On all 4 or just driver? That's good news thought I read in another thread that they were not auto's. I already have a new car that misses the mark compared to it's segment but I still love it.

I’m fairly positive the auto down is on all the windows. The biggest test for reliability with regards to the interior is letting my 6 year old ride in the back. All the buttons get toggled repeatedly within 30 seconds of him entering the car. His comment the other day was the back window switch was broken because it would go down with one push but he had to hold it to get it to go back up.

True story - I had someone ask what kind of dog we had. They assumed by all of the window smudges on the rear window that we’d picked up another doberman…

 

[Mountain4x4]

There are a lot of details I am not sure about. I have a feeling my unit will have quite a few changes by the time it arrives in a year. Steering box rumors, auto down, ect. Keep in mind our test drive was in an Ineos owned 2023 vehicle, and was pre-production with all sorts of fit and finish issues, and we could not really use or explore the infotainment system as it barely worked. No safety features were installed, no Sirius XM, Android Auto and so on. Sadly, that vehicle will be crushed some day.

 

[Mountain4x4]

I've seen such statements too often, and I think they are wrong.

If the car is wrong for you, you can sell it. So the risk is not a 90K thing, it may be around 5K or even less. And as INEOS will increase prices next year again, it might even be a -5K (i.e. minus 5K) thing - which it was indeed for me with my first Grenadier.

That's why there is no 90K decision imho.

The thing is I drive ALL my vehicles for 10-12 Years or over 200K. I do not sell my vehicles until they are pretty well used. The Grenadier will see hard off road use from the start, its not going to be a cream puff mall crawler I can sell in a year or so and get my money out of it. If all goes to plan, I may have it the rest of my life wheeling extreme trails and overlanding. I know people buy and trade vehicles like some sort of collectibles, but I use vehicles for their intended purpose. A sports car would be horrific for me as I could not afford the speeding tickets.

 

[emax]

The thing is I drive ALL my vehicles for 10-12 Years or over 200K.

So do I. My W203 is now in year 24, I bought it as new. The SLK is in year 16, we bought it when it was 3 years old.

But this has nothing to do with the risk I was talking about. It is nowhere near 90K.

 

[lightning]

3. Have you SERIOUSLY considered a new Defender? This is not for you. The Defender is a delicate, un-reliable plastic street car, not in the same class. Forget the old Defender, which honestly was not either.
4. Price and Build a Defender. Did you vomit un-controllably? I mean a 100 screens asking what plastic trim, colors, rims, and leather details you want and nothing about off-road stuff. Then yes, its for you.

You don't like the new Defender then

 

[lightning]

Just as my Power Wagon is not, or where I live, or where I am going to retire which involves off road driving, hauling your own trash, making your own power, hills that can require dual lockers in the winter, and so on.

Are you talking about the original Power Wagon truck that was built up until the 1980's ? No modern vehicle will be able to match that as a general off road workhorse.
With no electronics at all it's going to go on for ever.
Or are you referring to the post 2005 RAM version

 

[Mountain4x4]

I do not like the Defender at all. While the short term reliability is terrible, so is the dismal long term prospects. On the IG at least there is a chance to sort things out long term. But once again its false marketing, which in todays world will not stop until there are class action lawsuits. Everyone from Subaru to Kia markets AWD street cars as aggressive off roaders and in the US they get stacked up like cord wood in off road areas after being destroyed. The Defender is BARELY a step up from an AWD street car. Its frustrating that most comparisons to the IG are done on easy dirt roads, and even when tires start flying in the air on simple dirt moguls, they are like, "look it made it"! Some key problems;

1. IRS. You are not going far at all with IRS. Mitsubishi also attempted this with the Gen 3 Montero/ Pajero and it is impressive how much stuff gets broken. Instead of 2 CVs and brittle suspensions, you now have 4 to drag around and break! Yes, I have dragged 3rd Gen Monteros in my club groups across these trails, but its UGLY. BUTT FREAKING UGLY!
2. Electronic controls. Maybe they will fix the camping problem with draining the battery and other glitches. But in the end a primarily electronically 4wd/ AWD controlled system is a disaster. Even the center diff lock unlocks on its own at the wrong time.
3. Unlikely the rear end will survive being locked, let alone the front. ( if you can even figure out to configure a locker)
4. Cannot add a proper tire, EVER.
5. Cannot be reasonably modified. A dealer even totaled out one trying to add a winch.
6. Giant plastic blob, do I need to explain?

My Power Wagon is a 2018. A little unfortunate as in 2019 they made some critical revisions, such as swapping out the Boat Anchor for a ZF transmission. I sort of feel like for the most part it stays true to its original roots as a work horse. They come one way, heavy duty based on a 2500 chassis, lockers and winch. And while reliability on mine is mediocre at BEST, it will not break. I use as a recovery rig, dump truck off road pulling a 15K dump trailer, you name it. The electronics are not bad. As with a typical 4wd things like traction control are abandoned as you switch into 4wd and low range. Only the front locker nanny is terrible. (real bad) Maybe not as cool as the WW2 power wagons, but not bad.

 

[lightning]

Vehicles such as New Defender are designed for a particular market and not niche markets such as yours.

Land Rover will say that the New Defender has been a complete success and for the market it's designed for, it has.

The Grenadier is a half way house between what you want and the new Defender. lt should be more long lasting (than a New Defender) but it still has over 40 microprocessors and a BMW engine full of sensors and electronics.

For someone like yourself l would be looking at commercial products designed for farmers, which are more geared to a hard life off road.

95% of New Defenders will never go off road, so most owners don't really care that it's not like the old Power Wagon. What they want is a vehicle that makes them think they are adventurous.

And don't forget l am saying this as an owner of one.

 

[DaBull]

I do not like the Defender at all. While the short term reliability is terrible, so is the dismal long term prospects. On the IG at least there is a chance to sort things out long term. But once again its false marketing, which in todays world will not stop until there are class action lawsuits. Everyone from Subaru to Kia markets AWD street cars as aggressive off roaders and in the US they get stacked up like cord wood in off road areas after being destroyed. The Defender is BARELY a step up from an AWD street car. Its frustrating that most comparisons to the IG are done on easy dirt roads, and even when tires start flying in the air on simple dirt moguls, they are like, "look it made it"! Some key problems;

1. IRS. You are not going far at all with IRS. Mitsubishi also attempted this with the Gen 3 Montero/ Pajero and it is impressive how much stuff gets broken. Instead of 2 CVs and brittle suspensions, you now have 4 to drag around and break! Yes, I have dragged 3rd Gen Monteros in my club groups across these trails, but its UGLY. BUTT FREAKING UGLY!
2. Electronic controls. Maybe they will fix the camping problem with draining the battery and other glitches. But in the end a primarily electronically 4wd/ AWD controlled system is a disaster. Even the center diff lock unlocks on its own at the wrong time.
3. Unlikely the rear end will survive being locked, let alone the front. ( if you can even figure out to configure a locker)
4. Cannot add a proper tire, EVER.
5. Cannot be reasonably modified. A dealer even totaled out one trying to add a winch.
6. Giant plastic blob, do I need to explain?

My Power Wagon is a 2018. A little unfortunate as in 2019 they made some critical revisions, such as swapping out the Boat Anchor for a ZF transmission. I sort of feel like for the most part it stays true to its original roots as a work horse. They come one way, heavy duty based on a 2500 chassis, lockers and winch. And while reliability on mine is mediocre at BEST, it will not break. I use as a recovery rig, dump truck off road pulling a 15K dump trailer, you name it. The electronics are not bad. As with a typical 4wd things like traction control are abandoned as you switch into 4wd and low range. Only the front locker nanny is terrible. (real bad) Maybe not as cool as the WW2 power wagons, but not bad.

Wow, guess you have never owned a New Defender. I have and I can say without a doubt it is the number one 50/50 on-road / off-road vehicle in the world. What does that mean, it means there is no other 4x4 in the world that comes even close to how well this vehicle drives on road. It also means it is also very capable off-road. It has it's place and thats the reason it has been such a success. Everything is seamlessly integrated from the engine, to the transmissiom, to the electronics. It is a simply amazing vehicle. I get it, It's not your bag, I get it. It was not made for you. That does not mean you should be trashing it. It occupies a unique part of the market, no different then the Grenadier will also occupy a unique part of the market. I think the Grenadier is going to be a larger success than most anyone imagines. It will likley be crowned the number one 65/35 off road on road vehicle in the world. I love my Defender. I will love my Grenadier. I will not trash one for the other. I am supported of companies willing to risk and invest billions to put a smille on face everyday. That's a win for everyone. DaBull

 

[Mountain4x4]

Honestly, the Grenadier is as close to a commercial duty design as you can get in the US, Power Wagon aside. The Ozzies get some beastly rigs, but even those are getting toned down over time. I look at it from the point of body and suspension. Stock, you will not find anything tougher. And the transmission is the same as the Power Wagon.

 

[lightning]

l think it's great that both options are available.


Defender, a road optimised vehicle
that's competent off road
Grenadier, an off road optimised vehicle that's still competent enough on road.

Choose depending on your particular needs.