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Interesting marketing approach

Jemsquash

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I find the marketing approach interesting by ineos. I see lots of videos of the grenadier in interesting/ beautiful locations. However, i have yet to see it in any stressed situation.
What I mean by this is in situations where it is losing traction, lifting wheels, having to rev extra to get over an obstacle etc.
I know this vehicle is not marketed as an off-road enthusiasts vehicle, but it is marketed as a tough utility 4wd, but no videos of that?
I see videos of famous people getting behind the wheel, but pretty much clueless about 4w driving.
The development process is far enough along that ineos should have some footage of situations like this. I hope they don't think that buyers would view situations like this as negative, but what do I know about marketing!
 

Spjnr

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I find the marketing approach interesting by ineos. I see lots of videos of the grenadier in interesting/ beautiful locations. However, i have yet to see it in any stressed situation.
What I mean by this is in situations where it is losing traction, lifting wheels, having to rev extra to get over an obstacle etc.
I know this vehicle is not marketed as an off-road enthusiasts vehicle, but it is marketed as a tough utility 4wd, but no videos of that?
I see videos of famous people getting behind the wheel, but pretty much clueless about 4w driving.
The development process is far enough along that ineos should have some footage of situations like this. I hope they don't think that buyers would view situations like this as negative, but what do I know about marketing!
In the Australia 'Tracks' series the 2B Grenadier is shown spinning tyres and struggling when its giving the Unimog a pull.

Its not much but its something. I do wonder whether theres a concern by vehicle companies about how much "hardcore" wheeling they show in their promotionals. For instance if they showed someone spinning wheels and bouncing off the rev limiter, it could be construed as encouraging that sort of driving.

I know we're all fine with that, but from a covering ones ass aspect, it might be something they think about.
 

klarie

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I ve seen videos published (not from Ineos) where prototypes had its problems in mud and wheels in the air. So what, if Ineos does not want such pictures published they would have used more secrecy in development and prototype testing. - Instead they are most certainly aware that such videos and struggles and issues are made public instead - using it to improve the vehicle. Of course the official videos are more ad style and shiny.. or if muddy to make an appearance of adventure.
Reality will anyway shown later on once the vehicle enters the real test. - Still IG must earn its laurels and reputation when it is with customers.
 

DCPU

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I find the marketing approach interesting by ineos. I see lots of videos of the grenadier in interesting/ beautiful locations. However, i have yet to see it in any stressed situation.
What I mean by this is in situations where it is losing traction, lifting wheels, having to rev extra to get over an obstacle etc.
Obviously not the right ones.

Loosing traction ~ as mentioned watch the Oz series:
Screenshot_20220801_223603.jpg

Lifting wheels ~ there's so many to choose from, but try the Dubai series, or the early Austrian vehicles:
E3_LT3YWQAAEwBG.jpeg

Having to rev extra to get over an obstacle ~ why? Either the traction is there or it isn't. Lock a diff, or two, or even 3. Otherwise, pick a different line or get the winch out.

As slowly as possible, as fast as necessary seems both mechanically sympathetic and environmentally aware?

The last time I off roaded like this:
New Defender during rehearsals on set of NTTD _01 Copyright 2020 Danjaq LLC and MGM_All Rights...jpg
I think I was 5, and it was off the kitchen table.
 
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Logsplitter

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Obviously not the right ones.

Loosing traction ~ as mentioned watch the Oz series:
View attachment 7797971

Lifting wheels ~ there's so many to choose from, but try the Dubai series, or the early Austrian vehicles:
View attachment 7797972

Having to rev extra to get over an obstacle ~ why? Either the traction is there or it isn't. Lock a diff, or two, or even 3. Otherwise, pick a different line or get the winch out.

As slowly as possible, as fast as necessary seems both mechanically sympathetic and environmentally aware?

The last time I off roaded like this:
View attachment 7797975
I think I was 5, and it was off the kitchen table.

“As slowly as possible, as fast as necessary seems both mechanically sympathetic and environmentally aware?”
Totally agreed on that. Mechanical empathy is a real thing
 

emax

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At the latest when the grenadiers reach their owners, we will see all these situations on youtube and elsewhere.
 

stickshifter

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I find the marketing approach interesting by ineos. I see lots of videos of the grenadier in interesting/ beautiful locations. However, i have yet to see it in any stressed situation.
What I mean by this is in situations where it is losing traction, lifting wheels, having to rev extra to get over an obstacle etc.
I know this vehicle is not marketed as an off-road enthusiasts vehicle, but it is marketed as a tough utility 4wd, but no videos of that?
I see videos of famous people getting behind the wheel, but pretty much clueless about 4w driving.
The development process is far enough along that ineos should have some footage of situations like this. I hope they don't think that buyers would view situations like this as negative, but what do I know about marketing!
Like you, I have not been a fan of how Ineos has shown us the vehicle: too much glitz, not enough substance. Most of the videos produced by Ineos have been of the Grenadier on muddy tracks (with a couple of minor exceptions). I was particularly disappointed in the video they produced after driving the Grenadier from Colorado to California; we got a 45-second video of the Grenadier on dirt roads. Nothing from any of the challenging terrain in Colorado, nothing from any of the challenging trails in Moab. Here is the video:


I hate to sound parochial, but as an American, I was pretty annoyed. So far, I haven't felt like Ineos is all that interested in the American market.

You might like this recent review by Scott Brady, of Expedition Portal:
 
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painter

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Like you, I have not been a fan of how Ineos has shown us the vehicle: too much glitz, not enough substance.
...we got a 45-second video of the Grenadier on dirt roads.

Again, I'm with you stick. Videos too short, too fast.
Slick editing, slim content.
They could show more but choose not to.

TikTok Nation, IDK.
 

Jemsquash

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Thanks stickshifter. That video was one of the better ones in revealing how it performs.

Traction control seems reasonable. Articulation is more than enough for my needs.
Still prototype, so traction control may be different to final production.
I wonder if that's why I haven't seen much of this sort of footage. Although I would have thought that this sort of thing would be finalized by now.
Front seat looks like it jacks up nicely, which I love in my current 4wd.
 

Spjnr

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While i agree that INEOS's short slick video habit is frustrating, what other vehicle manufacturers are making long, in depth hardcore off-road videos for people like us?

Its surely a result of the platforms most of these videos are broadcast on these days. The Instagram and TikTok platforms favour sub 1 minute shorts, and thats what i think their social media people are producing.

Not saying I agree with this strategy, as most people buying the Grenadier aren't in the TikTok generation, but id wager that's why we keep getting what we get.
 

stickshifter

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While i agree that INEOS's short slick video habit is frustrating, what other vehicle manufacturers are making long, in depth hardcore off-road videos for people like us?

Its surely a result of the platforms most of these videos are broadcast on these days. The Instagram and TikTok platforms favour sub 1 minute shorts, and thats what i think their social media people are producing.

Not saying I agree with this strategy, as most people buying the Grenadier aren't in the TikTok generation, but id wager that's why we keep getting what we get.
Yeah, I totally get that. But Ineos is completely new to making automobiles, and they are asking for money upfront - in most cases, without test drives prior to asking the customer to send them (1) $450 reservation fee, and then (2) $2,500 deposit. I think this puts them in a different category than Ford, GM, or other established manufacturers. I'd be happy to send Ford $3,000 when ordering the updated Super Duty (if that was the vehicle I wanted) without any concerns. I know they will stand behind the product, they will fix problems if there are any, they will be around in 5 or 10 years to supply parts and provide service, and that they have a 100-year history of standing behind their warranty.

On top of what I would call a "base-level concern" about a new company, North American customers - despite raising their hands at the same time as our friends in Europe and Australia, and sending in $450 - are subject to a price increase of $10,000 - $15,000 (who knows how much). So I want to know what I'm waiting for, and whether its worth my money.
 

bemax

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But nobody is forced to throw his money into the hat. The reservation fee is just a (refundable) way to see who is really interested on the customers side. As a bonus you get the chance to have one of the first cars when it will be available in your country.
For sure the rising prices would not meet my expectations neither but what do you expect from Ineos?
In the end it is a business and not a hobby.
 

2SeeYou

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I see videos of famous people getting behind the wheel, but pretty much clueless about 4w driving.
The development process is far enough along that ineos should have some footage of situations like this. I hope they don't think that buyers would view situations like this as negative, but what do I know about marketing!
Watch this interesting video. I think it answers a lot of questions!…

 

stickshifter

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But nobody is forced to throw his money into the hat. The reservation fee is just a (refundable) way to see who is really interested on the customers side. As a bonus you get the chance to have one of the first cars when it will be available in your country.
For sure the rising prices would not meet my expectations neither but what do you expect from Ineos?
In the end it is a business and not a hobby.
Yes, of course you are correct: no one is forced to purchase a Grenadier, and Ineos must operate as a for-profit business. But read the comments in response to Grenadier videos on YouTube, and most Americans are expressing similar concerns to those I have expressed here. I think most Americans who have followed the development of the Grenadier have a lot of respect for what Sir Jim is attempting, and we are excited that a vehicle we have long-wanted is finally coming to our shores. American 4x4 enthusiasts have long-bemoaned the departure of the old Defender in 1997, and the 70-series Landcruiser in 1987. Those who have followed the Grenadier closely, also understand that it was Sir Jim's goal to build a vehicle for global overland travel, where the key requirements are durability, payload, and traction on rough roads and/or moderate tracks. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these goals, and - in fact - this is what the majority of overlanders want (whether they are European, Australian, or American). However, there is some divergence in use-requirements between the “global market” (Europe and Australia), and the American market. These are my observations:

Most people in Europe and Australia who are shopping for a rugged 4x4 vehicle, are interested in overlanding - which I will define as adventure travel by vehicle, in which durability, payload, and traction are the key criteria.

A lot of people in America who are shopping for a rugged 4x4 vehicle, want the same thing that Europeans & Australians want (a durable vehicle, with good payload, and good traction).

(1) Here is where I see the first diversion between the global market and the American market: Americans seem to have different ideas about what level of power is appropriate for an overland vehicle. I think this is particularly true in the Mountain West, where our highways run over high passes, speed limits range from 65 to 85 mph, there are a lot of freight trucks on the road, and an under-powered vehicle feels unsafe (or just tedious).

(2) A second diversion between the global market and American market is that many Americans go "sport off-roading" (for want of a better term). By this I mean driving really hard trails just to see if they can. They build up their off-road rigs with 35, 37, or 40-inch tires, and test their vehicles and driving skill on very technical terrain. I think a lot of "overlanders" look down on "off-roading" because it involves using a vehicle for sport, and this is seen as a waste of natural resources, and as a source of unnecessary air, noise, or water pollution. In contrast, "overlanders" use a vehicle to travel to somewhere beautiful, or remote, or to access the back-country for recreation (climbing, hiking, camping, skiing, hunting, fishing, etc.). Overlanders often regard their use as more ethical than off-roading. Under careful scrutiny, I'm not sure if the distinction holds up, but I understand the argument.

(3) There is also cross-over between the overland and off-road community in America. This is especially true where trails to access recreation are technical. As the Mountain West has gotten more crowded, more and more people are using vehicles to travel hard technical trails in the hope of finding some solitude. This may be related to another difference in culture: I think that many Europeans are used to their mountains being crowded, while Americans are not. I have climbed extensively in the French, Swiss, and Julian Alps, and the climbing routes are packed; wild camping is often forbidden, and the mountain huts are booked solid. Many Americans in the Mountain West have an expectation of solitude when they head out into the mountains, but this has been changing quickly. Many of us are trying to cope by driving deeper into the back-country before starting our recreation. For example, I never go “off-roading”, but I have run 35-inch tires on multiple vehicles in order to access remote trails for climbing, camping, hunting, etc.

Summary: Americans who have followed the development of the Grenadier understand that the vehicle is intended for overlanding. We don’t think that there is anything wrong with that, but we are really trying to figure out if it will also be suitable for some of the things we may value that the global overland community does not, such as those I mentioned above: adequate power for highway driving at elevation, and adaptability to technical terrain. With respect to these two criteria, these are the concerns that I and many other Americans have expressed:

(1) The Grenadier does not have a great power-to-weight ratio; the gas-powered Grenadier is almost as heavy as the gas-powered (7.3 liter, single rear wheel, 4x4, regular cab) Ford F250 SuperDuty – which is a gigantic truck – but the Grenadier makes just 65% of the HP, and 69% of the torque that the big Ford makes. And while the vehicles are close in weight, the 7.3 Ford has a payload of 3,500 pounds (nearly double that of the Grenadier) and can tow 28,000 pounds (almost 4 times that of the Grenadier). On the surface, there seems to be no reason to ever compare the two vehicles, until you look at the fact that they are nearly the same weight. Lastly, there isn’t much room for tuning the B58, since the ZF transmission paired with the gas engine is the 8HP51, which has a max torque capacity of 369 lb. ft.

(2) There isn’t an “off-road” package from the manufacturer (larger tires & re-geared axles) and we don’t know yet how easy it will be to modify the Grenadier on our own (lots of technical discussions of this elsewhere).

If the gas engine came with the 8HP76 (as does the diesel), and if there were an “off-road” package from Ineos, I think many Americans would feel like the American market was important to Ineos. I’ve become frustrated at waiting to see if the Grenadier can be what I want it to be, and I recognize that this is my problem, not anyone else’s. At this point, I just want to know if I am best served taking my business elsewhere, or if I should continue to wait.

This is the last time I’ll post on these topics, as I am sure it is tedious for members of the forum. My apologies for beating a dead horse. Time to move along.
 
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DaveB

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Yes, of course you are correct: no one is forced to purchase a Grenadier, and Ineos must operate as a for-profit business. But read the comments in response to Grenadier videos on YouTube, and most Americans are expressing similar concerns to those I have expressed here. I think most Americans who have followed the development of the Grenadier have a lot of respect for what Sir Jim is attempting, and we are excited that a vehicle we have long-wanted is finally coming to our shores. American 4x4 enthusiasts have long-bemoaned the departure of the old Defender in 1997, and the 70-series Landcruiser in 1987. Those who have followed the Grenadier closely, also understand that it was Sir Jim's goal to build a vehicle for global overland travel, where the key requirements are durability, payload, and traction on rough roads and/or moderate tracks. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these goals, and - in fact - this is what the majority of overlanders want (whether they are European, Australian, or American). However, there is some divergence in use-requirements between the “global market” (Europe and Australia), and the American market. These are my observations:

Most people in Europe and Australia who are shopping for a rugged 4x4 vehicle, are interested in overlanding - which I will define as adventure travel by vehicle, in which durability, payload, and traction are the key criteria.

A lot of people in America who are shopping for a rugged 4x4 vehicle, want the same thing that Europeans & Australians want (a durable vehicle, with good payload, and good traction).

(1) Here is where I see the first diversion between the global market and the American market: Americans seem to have different ideas about what level of power is appropriate for an overland vehicle. I think this is particularly true in the Mountain West, where our highways run over high passes, speed limits range from 65 to 85 mph, there are a lot of freight trucks on the road, and an under-powered vehicle feels unsafe (or just tedious).

(2) A second diversion between the global market and American market is that many Americans go "sport off-roading" (for want of a better term). By this I mean driving really hard trails just to see if they can. They build up their off-road rigs with 35, 37, or 40-inch tires, and test their vehicles and driving skill on very technical terrain. I think a lot of "overlanders" look down on "off-roading" because it involves using a vehicle for sport, and this is seen as a waste of natural resources, and as a source of unnecessary air, noise, or water pollution. In contrast, "overlanders" use a vehicle to travel to somewhere beautiful, or remote, or to access the back-country for recreation (climbing, hiking, camping, skiing, hunting, fishing, etc.). Overlanders often regard their use as more ethical than off-roading. Under careful scrutiny, I'm not sure if the distinction holds up, but I understand the argument.

(3) There is also cross-over between the overland and off-road community in America. This is especially true where trails to access recreation are technical. As the Mountain West has gotten more crowded, more and more people are using vehicles to travel hard technical trails in the hope of finding some solitude. This may be related to another difference in culture: I think that many Europeans are used to their mountains being crowded, while Americans are not. I have climbed extensively in the French, Swiss, and Julian Alps, and the climbing routes are packed; wild camping is often forbidden, and the mountain huts are booked solid. Many Americans in the Mountain West have an expectation of solitude when they head out into the mountains, but this has been changing quickly. Many of us are trying to cope by driving deeper into the back-country before starting our recreation. For example, I never go “off-roading”, but I have run 35-inch tires on multiple vehicles in order to access remote trails for climbing, camping, hunting, etc.

Summary: Americans who have followed the development of the Grenadier understand that the vehicle is intended for overlanding. We don’t think that there is anything wrong with that, but we are really trying to figure out if it will also be suitable for some of the things we may value that the global overland community does not, such as those I mentioned above: adequate power for highway driving at elevation, and adaptability to technical terrain. With respect to these two criteria, these are the concerns that I and many other Americans have expressed:

(1) The Grenadier does not have a great power-to-weight ratio; the gas-powered Grenadier is almost as heavy as the gas-powered (7.3 liter) Ford F250 SuperDuty – which is a gigantic truck – but the Grenadier makes just 65% of the HP, and 69% of the torque that the big Ford makes. And while the vehicles are close in weight, the 7.3 Ford has a payload of 3,500 pounds (nearly double that of the Grenadier) and can tow 28,000 pounds (almost 4 times that of the Grenadier). On the surface, there seems to be no reason to ever compare the two vehicles, until you look at the fact that they are nearly the same weight. Lastly, there isn’t much room for tuning the B58, since the ZF transmission paired with the gas engine is the 8HP51, which has a max torque capacity of 369 lb. ft.

(2) There isn’t an “off-road” package from the manufacturer (larger tires & re-geared axles) and we don’t know yet how easy it will be to modify the Grenadier on our own (lots of technical discussions of this elsewhere).

If the gas engine came with the 8HP76 (as does the diesel), and if there were an “off-road” package from Ineos, I think many Americans would feel like the American market was important to Ineos. I’ve become frustrated at waiting to see if the Grenadier can be what I want it to be, and I recognize that this is my problem, not anyone else’s. At this point, I just want to know if I am best served taking my business elsewhere, or if I should continue to wait.

This is the last time I’ll post on these topics, as I am sure it is tedious for members of the forum. My apologies for beating a dead horse. Time to move along.
Good points
The other thing to consider and I have mentioned this before.
Ineos must have concerns that if the offer a product more suited to the American requirements, even as an option, they would be swamped with orders way beyond the capacity of their small manufacturing plant.
Coupled with your dealer model I could see they would have delivery dates extending for 2-3 years and have to stop taking orders within 12 months.
Once up and running at maximum capacity they won’t want delivery times to go past 6 months which means they have to limit order intake.
 

stickshifter

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Good points
The other thing to consider and I have mentioned this before.
Ineos must have concerns that if the offer a product more suited to the American requirements, even as an option, they would be swamped with orders way beyond the capacity of their small manufacturing plant.
Coupled with your dealer model I could see they would have delivery dates extending for 2-3 years and have to stop taking orders within 12 months.
Once up and running at maximum capacity they won’t want delivery times to go past 6 months which means they have to limit order intake.
Yeah, that's a good point. Along those lines, I wonder about Ineos' ability to handle recalls. Ford's release of the Bronco was massively delayed by disruptions to their supply chain. In response, they sought out a new manufacturer of engine valves. This - unintentionally - resulted in a bad batch of 2.7 liter Ecoboost engines (previously, the 2.7 Ecoboost had been pretty much bullet-proof). Ford replaced every failed engine with a brand new one for free (as they should have). Similarly, the Bronco was delivered with a crappy hard top (you have the option of a soft top or a hard top with the Bronco). Ford replaced every single hard top it sold (under warranty) with a brand new redesigned hard top from a different supplier. No manufacturer is perfect, but how they take responsibility for their mistakes is what separates the good from the bad. These are the things you don't know about a new company.
 

DDG

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Yes, of course you are correct: no one is forced to purchase a Grenadier, and Ineos must operate as a for-profit business. But read the comments in response to Grenadier videos on YouTube, and most Americans are expressing similar concerns to those I have expressed here. I think most Americans who have followed the development of the Grenadier have a lot of respect for what Sir Jim is attempting, and we are excited that a vehicle we have long-wanted is finally coming to our shores. American 4x4 enthusiasts have long-bemoaned the departure of the old Defender in 1997, and the 70-series Landcruiser in 1987. Those who have followed the Grenadier closely, also understand that it was Sir Jim's goal to build a vehicle for global overland travel, where the key requirements are durability, payload, and traction on rough roads and/or moderate tracks. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these goals, and - in fact - this is what the majority of overlanders want (whether they are European, Australian, or American). However, there is some divergence in use-requirements between the “global market” (Europe and Australia), and the American market. These are my observations:

Most people in Europe and Australia who are shopping for a rugged 4x4 vehicle, are interested in overlanding - which I will define as adventure travel by vehicle, in which durability, payload, and traction are the key criteria.

A lot of people in America who are shopping for a rugged 4x4 vehicle, want the same thing that Europeans & Australians want (a durable vehicle, with good payload, and good traction).

(1) Here is where I see the first diversion between the global market and the American market: Americans seem to have different ideas about what level of power is appropriate for an overland vehicle. I think this is particularly true in the Mountain West, where our highways run over high passes, speed limits range from 65 to 85 mph, there are a lot of freight trucks on the road, and an under-powered vehicle feels unsafe (or just tedious).

(2) A second diversion between the global market and American market is that many Americans go "sport off-roading" (for want of a better term). By this I mean driving really hard trails just to see if they can. They build up their off-road rigs with 35, 37, or 40-inch tires, and test their vehicles and driving skill on very technical terrain. I think a lot of "overlanders" look down on "off-roading" because it involves using a vehicle for sport, and this is seen as a waste of natural resources, and as a source of unnecessary air, noise, or water pollution. In contrast, "overlanders" use a vehicle to travel to somewhere beautiful, or remote, or to access the back-country for recreation (climbing, hiking, camping, skiing, hunting, fishing, etc.). Overlanders often regard their use as more ethical than off-roading. Under careful scrutiny, I'm not sure if the distinction holds up, but I understand the argument.

(3) There is also cross-over between the overland and off-road community in America. This is especially true where trails to access recreation are technical. As the Mountain West has gotten more crowded, more and more people are using vehicles to travel hard technical trails in the hope of finding some solitude. This may be related to another difference in culture: I think that many Europeans are used to their mountains being crowded, while Americans are not. I have climbed extensively in the French, Swiss, and Julian Alps, and the climbing routes are packed; wild camping is often forbidden, and the mountain huts are booked solid. Many Americans in the Mountain West have an expectation of solitude when they head out into the mountains, but this has been changing quickly. Many of us are trying to cope by driving deeper into the back-country before starting our recreation. For example, I never go “off-roading”, but I have run 35-inch tires on multiple vehicles in order to access remote trails for climbing, camping, hunting, etc.

Summary: Americans who have followed the development of the Grenadier understand that the vehicle is intended for overlanding. We don’t think that there is anything wrong with that, but we are really trying to figure out if it will also be suitable for some of the things we may value that the global overland community does not, such as those I mentioned above: adequate power for highway driving at elevation, and adaptability to technical terrain. With respect to these two criteria, these are the concerns that I and many other Americans have expressed:

(1) The Grenadier does not have a great power-to-weight ratio; the gas-powered Grenadier is almost as heavy as the gas-powered (7.3 liter, single rear wheel, 4x4, regular cab) Ford F250 SuperDuty – which is a gigantic truck – but the Grenadier makes just 65% of the HP, and 69% of the torque that the big Ford makes. And while the vehicles are close in weight, the 7.3 Ford has a payload of 3,500 pounds (nearly double that of the Grenadier) and can tow 28,000 pounds (almost 4 times that of the Grenadier). On the surface, there seems to be no reason to ever compare the two vehicles, until you look at the fact that they are nearly the same weight. Lastly, there isn’t much room for tuning the B58, since the ZF transmission paired with the gas engine is the 8HP51, which has a max torque capacity of 369 lb. ft.

(2) There isn’t an “off-road” package from the manufacturer (larger tires & re-geared axles) and we don’t know yet how easy it will be to modify the Grenadier on our own (lots of technical discussions of this elsewhere).

If the gas engine came with the 8HP76 (as does the diesel), and if there were an “off-road” package from Ineos, I think many Americans would feel like the American market was important to Ineos. I’ve become frustrated at waiting to see if the Grenadier can be what I want it to be, and I recognize that this is my problem, not anyone else’s. At this point, I just want to know if I am best served taking my business elsewhere, or if I should continue to wait.

This is the last time I’ll post on these topics, as I am sure it is tedious for members of the forum. My apologies for beating a dead horse. Time to move along.
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Max

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Yes, of course you are correct: no one is forced to purchase a Grenadier, and Ineos must operate as a for-profit business. But read the comments in response to Grenadier videos on YouTube, and most Americans are expressing similar concerns to those I have expressed here. I think most Americans who have followed the development of the Grenadier have a lot of respect for what Sir Jim is attempting, and we are excited that a vehicle we have long-wanted is finally coming to our shores. American 4x4 enthusiasts have long-bemoaned the departure of the old Defender in 1997, and the 70-series Landcruiser in 1987. Those who have followed the Grenadier closely, also understand that it was Sir Jim's goal to build a vehicle for global overland travel, where the key requirements are durability, payload, and traction on rough roads and/or moderate tracks. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these goals, and - in fact - this is what the majority of overlanders want (whether they are European, Australian, or American). However, there is some divergence in use-requirements between the “global market” (Europe and Australia), and the American market. These are my observations:

Most people in Europe and Australia who are shopping for a rugged 4x4 vehicle, are interested in overlanding - which I will define as adventure travel by vehicle, in which durability, payload, and traction are the key criteria.

A lot of people in America who are shopping for a rugged 4x4 vehicle, want the same thing that Europeans & Australians want (a durable vehicle, with good payload, and good traction).

(1) Here is where I see the first diversion between the global market and the American market: Americans seem to have different ideas about what level of power is appropriate for an overland vehicle. I think this is particularly true in the Mountain West, where our highways run over high passes, speed limits range from 65 to 85 mph, there are a lot of freight trucks on the road, and an under-powered vehicle feels unsafe (or just tedious).

(2) A second diversion between the global market and American market is that many Americans go "sport off-roading" (for want of a better term). By this I mean driving really hard trails just to see if they can. They build up their off-road rigs with 35, 37, or 40-inch tires, and test their vehicles and driving skill on very technical terrain. I think a lot of "overlanders" look down on "off-roading" because it involves using a vehicle for sport, and this is seen as a waste of natural resources, and as a source of unnecessary air, noise, or water pollution. In contrast, "overlanders" use a vehicle to travel to somewhere beautiful, or remote, or to access the back-country for recreation (climbing, hiking, camping, skiing, hunting, fishing, etc.). Overlanders often regard their use as more ethical than off-roading. Under careful scrutiny, I'm not sure if the distinction holds up, but I understand the argument.

(3) There is also cross-over between the overland and off-road community in America. This is especially true where trails to access recreation are technical. As the Mountain West has gotten more crowded, more and more people are using vehicles to travel hard technical trails in the hope of finding some solitude. This may be related to another difference in culture: I think that many Europeans are used to their mountains being crowded, while Americans are not. I have climbed extensively in the French, Swiss, and Julian Alps, and the climbing routes are packed; wild camping is often forbidden, and the mountain huts are booked solid. Many Americans in the Mountain West have an expectation of solitude when they head out into the mountains, but this has been changing quickly. Many of us are trying to cope by driving deeper into the back-country before starting our recreation. For example, I never go “off-roading”, but I have run 35-inch tires on multiple vehicles in order to access remote trails for climbing, camping, hunting, etc.

Summary: Americans who have followed the development of the Grenadier understand that the vehicle is intended for overlanding. We don’t think that there is anything wrong with that, but we are really trying to figure out if it will also be suitable for some of the things we may value that the global overland community does not, such as those I mentioned above: adequate power for highway driving at elevation, and adaptability to technical terrain. With respect to these two criteria, these are the concerns that I and many other Americans have expressed:

(1) The Grenadier does not have a great power-to-weight ratio; the gas-powered Grenadier is almost as heavy as the gas-powered (7.3 liter, single rear wheel, 4x4, regular cab) Ford F250 SuperDuty – which is a gigantic truck – but the Grenadier makes just 65% of the HP, and 69% of the torque that the big Ford makes. And while the vehicles are close in weight, the 7.3 Ford has a payload of 3,500 pounds (nearly double that of the Grenadier) and can tow 28,000 pounds (almost 4 times that of the Grenadier). On the surface, there seems to be no reason to ever compare the two vehicles, until you look at the fact that they are nearly the same weight. Lastly, there isn’t much room for tuning the B58, since the ZF transmission paired with the gas engine is the 8HP51, which has a max torque capacity of 369 lb. ft.

(2) There isn’t an “off-road” package from the manufacturer (larger tires & re-geared axles) and we don’t know yet how easy it will be to modify the Grenadier on our own (lots of technical discussions of this elsewhere).

If the gas engine came with the 8HP76 (as does the diesel), and if there were an “off-road” package from Ineos, I think many Americans would feel like the American market was important to Ineos. I’ve become frustrated at waiting to see if the Grenadier can be what I want it to be, and I recognize that this is my problem, not anyone else’s. At this point, I just want to know if I am best served taking my business elsewhere, or if I should continue to wait.

This is the last time I’ll post on these topics, as I am sure it is tedious for members of the forum. My apologies for beating a dead horse. Time to move along.
I think you make many good examples of the needs we adventurers wish for, you are not beating a dead horse but showing that there is a need...horses for courses. The Aussies build their off-road or rock-crawling machines, there not off the self. Motor, suspension, and running gear are all thrown onto a doner body, then a trailer and the Grenadier will be hooked up to pull it to the fun park...happy motoring
 

stickshifter

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I think you make many good examples of the needs we adventurers wish for, you are not beating a dead horse but showing that there is a need...horses for courses. The Aussies build their off-road or rock-crawling machines, there not off the self. Motor, suspension, and running gear are all thrown onto a doner body, then a trailer and the Grenadier will be hooked up to pull it to the fun park...happy motoring
Thanks! I spent a couple of months in New Zealand, but have never been to Australia. It’s good to get educated on how you use your vehicles and what you value. Much appreciated!
 
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