Ineos want to manufacture in US

FT article this morning

Ineos Automotive is searching for sites to move production of its flagship 4x4 vehicle from France to the US, as its billionaire owner Sir Jim Ratcliffe continues to pump cash into the struggling carmaker.

Chief executive Lynn Calder told the Financial Times the group aimed to start producing its Grenadier off-roader in America “as quickly as possible” to meet local demand.

Client Challenge

 

[pmatusov]

Aside from our blabbering being just as much nonsense as press releases...
It is not that much of a stretch to see a blend of CKD manufacturing in the U.S. and gradual move to use of the U.S. components.
The engine doesn't have to be LS or a V8 - there's a slew of straight sixes in the U.S. market. If a 3-liter diesel 6 works for a Silverado, it should be okay for a Gren.
The current Grenadier's axles fall between a Dana 44 and 60 - JK uses a 44HD, which should be similar in most dimensions and load capability.

 

[Zimm]

Solid-axle Jeep proves otherwise.

The issue being, the wrangler doesn't fit in with the other vehicles in target market or price. The solid axle the only correlation between the two.

 

[pmatusov]

The issue being, the wrangler doesn't fit in with the other vehicles in target market or price. The solid axle the only correlation between the two.

There is plenty of other examples. GM did ONE major redesign of Tahoe/Suburban in half a century; the rest was gradual reskinning and reluctant incremental drivetrain changes due to EPA pressure. Absent that, a TH400/NP203 combo would live in perpetuity. And Sub is in the same price category as a Grenadier.
BTW, a Wrangler starts off cheaply, but the top end is fully beyond Grenadier's base price.

 

[Zimm]

Aside from our blabbering being just as much nonsense as press releases...
It is not that much of a stretch to see a blend of CKD manufacturing in the U.S. and gradual move to use of the U.S. components.
The engine doesn't have to be LS or a V8 - there's a slew of straight sixes in the U.S. market. If a 3-liter diesel 6 works for a Silverado, it should be okay for a Gren.
The current Grenadier's axles fall between a Dana 44 and 60 - JK uses a 44HD, which should be similar in most dimensions and load capability.

I have yet to see any data on the Grens axles that would suggest a 44hd is equivalent (or not). The gren is 1500 more pounds, and that mass is somewhere in the body frame and drivetrain. John from AO has ripped them down apparently, so maybe hes done some side by side with the parts.

I also think maybe the engine bay was set up initially for a V formation motor. It looks to me the I6 was a cylinder and half too long and caused the Ozzy hump.

 

[Zimm]

There is plenty of other examples. GM did ONE major redesign of Tahoe/Suburban in half a century; the rest was gradual reskinning and reluctant incremental drivetrain changes due to EPA pressure. Absent that, a TH400/NP203 combo would live in perpetuity. And Sub is in the same price category as a Grenadier.
BTW, a Wrangler starts off cheaply, but the top end is fully beyond Grenadier's base price.

It's still not the same target market. People don't cross shop 4 door jeeps and tahoes now or ever. Jeep buyers have no concern for refinement at all. They want pop off body parts and fun. And yea, the fact a jeep model starts in the 30's DOES matter regardless how high you can option one. A gren is a 75k car. a 75k jeep is a 40k car with 35k in options.

 

[Tenac]

It's still not the same target market. People don't cross shop 4 door jeeps and tahoes now or ever. Jeep buyers have no concern for refinement at all. They want pop off body parts and fun. And yea, the fact a jeep model starts in the 30's DOES matter regardless how high you can option one. A gren is a 75k car. a 75k jeep is a 40k car with 35k in options.

I could swear that jeep owners just bought them for the ducks and picking up the kids from school.....

 

[NQ94]

I have yet to see any data on the Grens axles that would suggest a 44hd is equivalent (or not). The gren is 1500 more pounds, and that mass is somewhere in the body frame and drivetrain. John from AO has ripped them down apparently, so maybe hes done some side by side with the parts.

I also think maybe the engine bay was set up initially for a V formation motor. It looks to me the I6 was a cylinder and half too long and caused the Ozzy hump.

There are images on the US owners FB group looking at the Ineos diff crown wheel and pinion. 220mm crown wheel. It looks like AO is taking a lot of interest in the power train they have had some different diff ratios and brake calipers in development for the Grenadier.

 

[pmatusov]

There are images on the US owners FB group looking at the Ineos diff crown wheel and pinion. 220mm crown wheel. It looks like AO is taking a lot of interest in the power train they have had some different diff ratios and brake calipers in development for the Grenadier.

Close to a midpoint between D44 ring gear sizes. It isn't the only metric for an axle, however.

 

[NQ94]

Close to a midpoint between D44 ring gear sizes. It isn't the only metric for an axle, however.

AO has a few comments and photos about axle shafts diameter, bearing size, pinion/planetary gear size and cross gear shaft sizes comparing mainly to Sprinter diffs. Hoping they do a video the Grenadier transfer case like their Sprinter videos.

 

[[ Adam ]]

There is plenty of other examples. GM did ONE major redesign of Tahoe/Suburban in half a century; the rest was gradual reskinning and reluctant incremental drivetrain changes due to EPA pressure. Absent that, a TH400/NP203 combo would live in perpetuity. And Sub is in the same price category as a Grenadier.
BTW, a Wrangler starts off cheaply, but the top end is fully beyond Grenadier's base price.

The b58 is one of the most reliable components of the Grenadier. There is no reason to use any other motor.

 

[MurphyMurph]

No , not 100%. But for example in Norway they love them. 90% of new car sales. Clean, cheap power and tax freaks.
My wife owns a rocketship Volvo twin motor EV. Loves it. I can drag most ICE cars off the lights if I was so inlclined ( but I'm a grown up). It doesn't need services ( OK maybe wiper blades/fresh air filter every 3 years) , doesn't chew brakes (regen) and costs USD5 a week electron fee to cover 10000+ miles/year. ( even done the foreign maths for you ;<)).
So depending upon your own lens , it can work brilliantly.
Oh and we refuel at home. 3 phase power/ big solar.
EVs can make a lot of sense.
As always, it depends on one's little personal situation.

My main issue with EVs is the drastically higher amount of rare minerals required for each vehicles battery packs and associated components. I remember reading an article a couple years ago that stated with the amount of rare minerals required to build a 300-mile range EV, a car manufacturer could build 10 hybrids and 100 ICE cars with higher ranges. Yes, once the end product is sold to the end user, the carbon footprint is less than the hybrid or EV, but it would take around 10 years driving the industry average of 12k miles per year to offset the initial manufacturing impact. How many 10-year old EVs do you see on the road. Not many…

I’m all for innovation and trying new things, but requiring manufacturers to develop and build a product that is not as “green” as we are led to believe is dishonest and very damaging to the planet. Mining minerals is a highly toxic job and the by products are extremely toxic. Just look up what happens when a mining operations tailings pond dike fails.

Don’t get me started on solar panels…

 

[Mudnut]

I could see the Quartermaster manufactured in the US. Would eliminate the "Chicken Tax", and Pickup Trucks are a very large market in the US. Getting market share there would be a major boost.

 

[Zimm]

AO has a few comments and photos about axle shafts diameter, bearing size, pinion/planetary gear size and cross gear shaft sizes comparing mainly to Sprinter diffs. Hoping they do a video the Grenadier transfer case like their Sprinter videos.

Frankly, I think for on street use the diff ratios are fine for the size tires you're going to putting on this thing, I'd rather the lower 85mph rpm in that regard. A real offroad improvement for the 35" crowd would be a 4:1 gearset for the tcase, especially since this auto will access all 8 gears in low.

 

[pmatusov]

The b58 is one of the most reliable components of the Grenadier. There is no reason to use any other motor.

I am not complaining!
I have no idea how far Sir Jim wants to push IG build in the U.S., only saying that we have locally-made parts that are not too far out.

 

[LeeroyJ]

Those that love them can have them. To me they have no soul - but I don’t knock you for loving it. What disturbs me is the manipulation of the demand. In our country the tax benefits given for buying one cheapen the item for those that usually afford their own car anyway, increase the tax burden upon those that don’t benefit from them, and in the long run will hurt the poor in my opinion. Our president (not everything orange man does is bad, don’t be scared) has the tax benefits expiring any day now, if they’ve not already. Now we will actually be able to see what people here want.

The tax incentives were not just to achieve environmental goals. They also had "made in USA" components to them, because they were also trying to help local US development of EV's compete with the very heavily subsidized EV's from China. There is no increased tax burden on other citizens. Over 230,000 Americans work in the EV Automotive Industry, and now they are competing with China with very little help from the US Government and a lot of misinformation spread by the orange man. Meanwhile China is playing the long game and supporting its EV manufacturers as a national priority.