Americas Front Driveshaft CV redesign

[Commodore]

Ineos crew, there is an issue with the front driveshaft CV at the transfer case side. The acute driveline angle generates heat causing the rubber on the CV to rip and spill grease. This leads to failure of the CV joint and ultimately immediate loss of forward propulsion. The failures have been well documented. Do you have plans to redesign this part or should owners start looking for their own permanent solutions?

This is a serious safety concern that needs to be resolved.

 

[Dokatd]

Considering my dealer offers the Eibach lift off the showroom floor, I find it odd they can deny warranty.

I have had the lift for the last 40000kms, no issues.

I agree. But it's not necessarily Ineos approved I bet.

 

[Clark Kent]

Considering my dealer offers the Eibach lift off the showroom floor, I find it odd they can deny warranty.

I have had the lift for the last 40000kms, no issues.

Posting to prompt discussion, not start a FB-esque fight...

Different consumer laws and protections operate in the USA (where this comment originated) and Australia.
It's a murky area and I would like to hear from someone who has had a driveshaft warranty claim rejected by IA based on an installed lift kit then successfully challenged it, any good will aside.

Your agent, maybe it's Magic Enterprises, is an authorised reseller of Ineos Automotive (IA) vehicles. They are not IA. Modifications involving the fitment of aftermarket parts by your agent does not guarantee that IA will warrant secondary damage arising from those modifications. Our Consumer Guarantees do cover this situation broadly but attributing financial liability is tricky when there are multiple parties involved. The Australian Automotive Aftermarket Association has some commentary on it here, and the screenshot below. Under our ACL the retailer is generally responsible to provide a remedy so your agent still has obligations if there is a driveshaft failure.

Eibach have attempted to distance themselves via this message in their Pro Lift Kit literature.

 

[Commodore]

Ineos are working on a cv with thicker rubber and more strength as during a pseudo Ineos AMA to the Victorian Ineos 4x4 club down here in Australia.

I’m not so sure thicker it really the solution. I’m not an engineer but it seems going thicker is only going to make it more ridged. What is killing this boot is heat generated by constant flexing. Make it thicker out of the same material is only going to generate more heat. They need a different shape and or different more flexible material.

At least that my take but I could be wrong.

Half surprised that someone here with good design skills and a 3d printer hasn’t already stated experimenting with alternatives. The CV itself is fine. It a $1 piece of rubber that is killing us!

 

[Rossh36]

I’m not so sure thicker it really the solution. I’m not an engineer but it seems going thicker is only going to make it more ridged. What is killing this boot is heat generated by constant flexing. Make it thicker out of the same material is only going to generate more heat. They need a different shape and or different more flexible material.

At least that my take but I could be wrong.

Half surprised that someone here with good design skills and a 3d printer hasn’t already stated experimenting with alternatives. The CV itself is fine. It a $1 piece of rubber that is killing us!

I'm not sure either but just passing on comments from our club meeting; I guess the bottom line is that they know and are working on a better solution that the existing boot.

My QM is lifted and a 4.2t gvm upgrade so perhaps it's a waiting game for me....so be it. I'm going to enjoy my machine whilst I can and not stress too much.

 

[Rossh36]

Posting to prompt discussion, not start a FB-esque fight...

Different consumer laws and protections operate in the USA (where this comment originated) and Australia.
It's a murky area and I would like to hear from someone who has had a driveshaft warranty claim rejected by IA based on an installed lift kit then successfully challenged it, any good will aside.

Your agent, maybe it's Magic Enterprises, is an authorised reseller of Ineos Automotive (IA) vehicles. They are not IA. Modifications involving the fitment of aftermarket parts by your agent does not guarantee that IA will warrant secondary damage arising from those modifications. Our Consumer Guarantees do cover this situation broadly but attributing financial liability is tricky when there are multiple parties involved. The Australian Automotive Aftermarket Association has some commentary on it here, and the screenshot below. Under our ACL the retailer is generally responsible to provide a remedy so your agent still has obligations if there is a driveshaft failure.

Eibach have attempted to distance themselves via this message in their Pro Lift Kit literature.

View attachment 7902839

View attachment 7902840

don't flog your vehicle, look after it and the rest will follow....but if it doesn't go that way, you knew it might happen...so yes, a grey area.

 

[Shoogs]

don't flog your vehicle, look after it and the rest will follow....but if it doesn't go that way, you knew it might happen...so yes, a grey area.

Pretty much, for many years and many Defenders I carried a handful of uni joints and such, always time for a change and cuppa on a lonely track… driven a few kms without a front driveshaft.

 

[Dokatd]

I'm not sure either but just passing on comments from our club meeting; I guess the bottom line is that they know and are working on a better solution that the existing boot.

My QM is lifted and a 4.2t gvm upgrade so perhaps it's a waiting game for me....so be it. I'm going to enjoy my machine whilst I can and not stress too much.

The solution is not a new boot or a new joint, the solution is a new front axle with the diff set in the proper place. They botched the pinion angle vs caster angle.

 

[255/85]

The solution is not a new boot or a new joint, the solution is a new front axle with the diff set in the proper place. They botched the pinion angle vs caster angle.

Isn't the front transfer output kicked up too much also? Wife took the car so I can't go confirm my memory at the moment.

 

[Dokatd]

Isn't the front transfer output kicked up too much also? Wife took the car so I can't go confirm my memory at the moment.

By design it kinda has to be. Well, it could be flat, but basically no drivetrains are completely flat, they almost all tilt slightly. That said, it's only a mi no or amount on the Gren. Certainly not the smoking gun that the axle configuration itself is.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

asked and answered

 

[Rocky]

The solution is not a new boot or a new joint, the solution is a new front axle with the diff set in the proper place. They botched the pinion angle vs caster angle.

I agree! The new JL and JT jeeps have the same issue with front drive shafts when lifted past 3” but they at least have a lot more castor in stock form.

It would seem to me the only logical solution is reclock the outer knuckles another 5 degrees or so which involves cutting and welding the axle tubes. This was done on F250 axles in the past. I don’t know anyone that can do this anymore and course if you did find a shop it would likely be cost prohibitive to do so for most of us here.

 

[Dokatd]

I agree! The new JL and JT jeeps have the same issue with front drive shafts when lifted past 3” but they at least have a lot more castor in stock form.

It would seem to me the only logical solution is reclock the outer knuckles another 5 degrees or so which involves cutting and welding the axle tubes. This was done on F250 axles in the past. I don’t know anyone that can do this anymore and course if you did find a shop it would likely be cost prohibitive to do so for most of us here.

Crawl under your truck and look, Ineos and Carraro didn't make that so simple.

 

[Commodore]

The solution is not a new boot or a new joint, the solution is a new front axle with the diff set in the proper place. They botched the pinion angle vs caster angle.

That would be the correct fix but nobody as done a cut and turn yet. I keep waiting for someone to be the first.

 

[Tazzieman]

Probably easier just to buy a cheap Jeep for when you need it.

 

[Commodore]

Probably easier just to buy a cheap Jeep for when you need it.

Sure and just replace the engine every year. Not sure what you get for power down there but we get a v6 that eats the cam shafts. The cams are on infinite backorder so you can’t even get it repaired.

At least the CV on ours is widely available and only $100

 

[Commodore]

asked and answered

Perhaps I’m a little slow but what was asked and answered?

 

[Dokatd]

That would be the correct fix but nobody as done a cut and turn yet. I keep waiting for someone to be the first.

I have another option that might be viable. But I need a front axle that I can play with. I'm not in a position where I want to tear down my front end to fix this problem as it seems the Terra joint is working for me currently.

 

[Allrad-Oli]

It's interesting to read about it again and again..... strangely enough, almost only from the USA! From my point of view, Ineos would have to fundamentally revise the entire cardan shaft connection (including axle design and transfer case). Unfortunately, most customers don't have a clue about the problem, but just looking at the axle shaft should give the layman food for thought! Too little is happening (yet), but I think it's a time bomb.
(I have an angle of the front joint of 8° (6° inclination of the shaft +2° caster or inclination of the drive train) when stationary at standard height, which is considerable! When sprung out, the value increases accordingly up to 14° and 12° respectively!)

 

[Dokatd]

It's interesting to read about it again and again..... strangely enough, almost only from the USA! From my point of view, Ineos would have to fundamentally revise the entire cardan shaft connection (including axle design and transfer case). Unfortunately, most customers don't have a clue about the problem, but just looking at the axle shaft should give the layman food for thought! Too little is happening (yet), but I think it's a time bomb.
(I have an angle of the front joint of 8° (6° inclination of the shaft +2° caster or inclination of the drive train) when stationary at standard height, which is considerable! When sprung out, the value increases accordingly up to 14° and 12° respectively!)

Reconfiguring the front axle would solve all the issues. If they just turned up the pinion to the maximum that Cararro can tolerate within reason and then set caster to say 6-8° then all is good. The T-case side is fixed via turning up the axle pinion.

 

[Commodore]

Reconfiguring the front axle would solve all the issues. If they just turned up the pinion to the maximum that Cararro can tolerate within reason and then set caster to say 6-8° then all is good. The T-case side is fixed via turning up the axle pinion.

Truth be told, I don’t even mind the low caster. I was on trails yesterday and was thinking about how nice it is that the steering wheel just stays put and doesn’t bounce around.