Friday Musings: Will the Grenadier burst the Defender bubble?

[emax]

Maybe they think "why doesn't he Make America Great Again?".

;-)

 

[klarie]

What I am wondering is when IG starts shipping to the US and we start driving to OHV parks where Jeeps dominate and the new Bronco is a serious challenger. What will those drivers think? I hope they think they made a bad choice of vehicle.

Knowing the guys at least in the north western region Washington / Idaho / Montana.. there both conservative and curious. Jeeps are well known, spare parts, and fixing these is at least in the US pretty simple. Did not notice a single original LR Defender in the US. The Bronco ? - might be a challenger to Jeep if the quality issues are fixed. I also considered the Bronco if it would be shipped to Germany. A couple of topics such as options available in Europe and engine (I like a straight 6.. and Diesel..) stopped me from considering the Bronco further.
But for the US - the Bronco fits at least in the midwest and northern states pretty well. - The IG will be seen differently. The 4x4 Pickup is far more common and Jeep and similar as well - so IG need to fight to gather a position. And its also not a bargain. I imagine the guys there will be rather sceptic on this overseas newcomer. However I assume IG will prove itself as solid and reliable it will most certainly a vehicle that can establish a market share. BMW engines are known - but in the US - its not the Diesel - its the Petrol / Gas version that will make it.
At the end - its not the brand - but the vehicles capability / reliability and tco that will finally make the impression. And perhaps some Bronco owners may rethink their purchase. The Wrangler is piece of US - culture. Like Coca Cola or Harley Davidson. That will never beaten. IG still has a long way to become an icon. - or to succeed original Defender as an icon. But it has all the genes already to become one. Its Ineos that need to do the proper decisions - and of course what is going on at the planet.
Jeep made its success as an army vehicle
Defender or originally 110 made its success as a bush vehicle in Safaris and featured films like "four weddings and a funeral" or even better "The gods must be crazy" This is what truely a bush vehicle means. How many old LR are still operational ?
To me the US market is entirely different. Establishing an exotic sportscar like a Bugatti or a new type of well known brands there is one topic, however establishing a new brand and placing a vehicle in market dominated by Jeep and already internally challenged by Ford is a hell of work for Ineos.

 

[PAV]

Knowing the guys at least in the north western region Washington / Idaho / Montana.. there both conservative and curious. Jeeps are well known, spare parts, and fixing these is at least in the US pretty simple. Did not notice a single original LR Defender in the US. The Bronco ? - might be a challenger to Jeep if the quality issues are fixed. I also considered the Bronco if it would be shipped to Germany. A couple of topics such as options available in Europe and engine (I like a straight 6.. and Diesel..) stopped me from considering the Bronco further.
But for the US - the Bronco fits at least in the midwest and northern states pretty well. - The IG will be seen differently. The 4x4 Pickup is far more common and Jeep and similar as well - so IG need to fight to gather a position. And its also not a bargain. I imagine the guys there will be rather sceptic on this overseas newcomer. However I assume IG will prove itself as solid and reliable it will most certainly a vehicle that can establish a market share. BMW engines are known - but in the US - its not the Diesel - its the Petrol / Gas version that will make it.
At the end - its not the brand - but the vehicles capability / reliability and tco that will finally make the impression. And perhaps some Bronco owners may rethink their purchase. The Wrangler is piece of US - culture. Like Coca Cola or Harley Davidson. That will never beaten. IG still has a long way to become an icon. - or to succeed original Defender as an icon. But it has all the genes already to become one. Its Ineos that need to do the proper decisions - and of course what is going on at the planet.
Jeep made its success as an army vehicle
Defender or originally 110 made its success as a bush vehicle in Safaris and featured films like "four weddings and a funeral" or even better "The gods must be crazy" This is what truely a bush vehicle means. How many old LR are still operational ?
To me the US market is entirely different. Establishing an exotic sportscar like a Bugatti or a new type of well known brands there is one topic, however establishing a new brand and placing a vehicle in market dominated by Jeep and already internally challenged by Ford is a hell of work for Ineos.

Totally agree with this statement. The well-established Jeep community and Ford's return to market with the new Bronco makes for some crowded competition in NA for the IG. I'm sure INEOS is well-aware and will be cautiously optimistic with regard to sales expectations. If the forecasted "carmageddon" recession pricing holds true, Ford and Jeep may collectively decide on pricing incentives to move excess (2022) inventory later this year. Lots of factors for buyers to consider and it will be interesting to see if IG manages to carve itself a new niche in NA.

 

[DaveB]

Totally agree with this statement. The well-established Jeep community and Ford's return to market with the new Bronco makes for some crowded competition in NA for the IG. I'm sure INEOS is well-aware and will be cautiously optimistic with regard to sales expectations. If the forecasted "carmageddon" recession pricing holds true, Ford and Jeep may collectively decide on pricing incentives to move excess (2022) inventory later this year. Lots of factors for buyers to consider and it will be interesting to see if IG manages to carve itself a new niche in NA.

I find it hard to believe that anyone shopping for a Wrangler or a Bronco would also be seriously considering a Grenadier.
They are just so different to me.
Not better or worse, just so different

 

[Krabby]

@DaveB I don't disagree with you, but in the US people will associate them. Those three vehicles are, to the best of my knowledge, the only new legitimate, non-pickup off-roaders that are on a ladder chassis here besides the Toyota 4Runner. Yes, things like the Escalade, Suburban, and Expedition are also on traditional frames, but they're not the vehicles Americans buy to actually get off the pavement - Jeeps and Broncos are. The entire boring catalog of 4-wheel-drive blobs here - Explorer, Pathfinder, Escape, Blazer, Pilot, non-Wrangler Jeeps, etc., etc. - are unibody-based, independant suspension soccer mom mobiles.

 

[PAV]

I find it hard to believe that anyone shopping for a Wrangler or a Bronco would also be seriously considering a Grenadier.
They are just so different to me.
Not better or worse, just so different

Agreed. The IG is totally different - but the target demographic shouldn't be.
TBH, for NA, given the starting price of the IG, I'm not really sure who that is (outside of classic LR fans).

 

[PAV]

@DaveB I don't disagree with you, but in the US people will associate them. Those three vehicles are, to the best of my knowledge, the only new legitimate, non-pickup off-roaders that are on a ladder chassis here besides the Toyota 4Runner. Yes, things like the Escalade, Suburban, and Expedition are also on traditional frames, but they're not the vehicles Americans buy to actually get off the pavement - Jeeps and Broncos are. The entire boring catalog of 4-wheel-drive blobs here - Explorer, Pathfinder, Escape, Blazer, Pilot, non-Wrangler Jeeps, etc., etc. - are unibody-based, independant suspension soccer mom mobiles.

Yes + Ford did a LOT of market research while developing the Bronco; delivering variants for both the 'soccer mom' and off-road markets.
My understanding is IG has similar future plans with a 'luxury' variant being introduced at a later date once their dealer network is well-established (smart move IMHO).

 

[DaveB]

@DaveB I don't disagree with you, but in the US people will associate them. Those three vehicles are, to the best of my knowledge, the only new legitimate, non-pickup off-roaders that are on a ladder chassis here besides the Toyota 4Runner. Yes, things like the Escalade, Suburban, and Expedition are also on traditional frames, but they're not the vehicles Americans buy to actually get off the pavement - Jeeps and Broncos are. The entire boring catalog of 4-wheel-drive blobs here - Explorer, Pathfinder, Escape, Blazer, Pilot, non-Wrangler Jeeps, etc., etc. - are unibody-based, independant suspension soccer mom mobiles.

We won't get the Bronco here and I did look at and test drive the Wrangler but the quality, performance and driving experience were so bad on Australian roads that I couldn't imagine living with one as a daily driver.
I agree on all the others

 

[DaveB]

Agreed. The IG is totally different - but the target demographic shouldn't be.
TBH, for NA, given the starting price of the IG, I'm not really sure who that is (outside of classic LR fans).

I agree mostly and I think that is why it hasn't been a real focus for IA
Different markets have different preferences
I hired a Fiat 500 to drive around Sardinia and Sicily and then a Fiat Panda
I could see easily why the Italians loved to drive them in that environment
Wouldn't have one in Australia though.
Fiat managed to sell 2,000 vehicles in Australia of all models
Jeep managed just over 7,000 of all models combined. Less than 700 Gladiator 1,200 Wranglers

 

[Tanters]

Re; dealer expertise, walk in to the dealers for Birmingham UK and the showroom is full of shiny new Aston Martins …. Not your typical off road vehicle You just have to hope they have the knowledge to hand to service/ fix as needed. The dealer in Ireland is an events company soooooo hope abounds

 

[AnD3rew]

Having driven a ‘Soccer Mum SUV’ around the world I’m maybe a bit testy about this sort of positioning. I reckon the new Defender is a superb bit of engineering, that is way too overbuilt to be dismissed as a poser. That said I just don’t look at it and see a keeper like I do with the Grenadier (or W461), possibly for the reasons you list.

Interesting to contemplate the models you mention: MB G-series (Magna Steyr current); BMW X-5 (Gen 3 Range Rover lineage); BMW X-3 (Magna Steyr lineage); Jeep Grand Cherokee (Magna Steyr lineage). Everyone’s been marrying their cousins for years, and that’s before one considers the engine family trees.

I agree, the New Defender is superbly capable offroad and an amazing and in my eyes good looking bit of kit. Where it falls down is general reliability and the appalling JLR arrogance and indifference towards their customers. I hope and suspect that Grendiers will be on the road more often than any Land Rover product and for a decade or more longer. But had the same attitudes from Toyota drivers etc when I had my Discoveries “thats a pretend 4wd” and then you flick a switch and raise it up, put it in the right mode and drive circles around them while they are stuck

 

[DaveB]

Having driven a ‘Soccer Mum SUV’ around the world I’m maybe a bit testy about this sort of positioning. I reckon the new Defender is a superb bit of engineering, that is way too overbuilt to be dismissed as a poser. That said I just don’t look at it and see a keeper like I do with the Grenadier (or W461), possibly for the reasons you list.

Interesting to contemplate the models you mention: MB G-series (Magna Steyr current); BMW X-5 (Gen 3 Range Rover lineage); BMW X-3 (Magna Steyr lineage); Jeep Grand Cherokee (Magna Steyr lineage). Everyone’s been marrying their cousins for years, and that’s before one considers the engine family trees.

Don't mention marrying your cousins please.
We have people on here from Tasmania, Wales and Kentucky and they may get offended

 

[Max]

I find it hard to believe that anyone shopping for a Wrangler or a Bronco would also be seriously considering a Grenadier.
They are just so different to me.
Not better or worse, just so different

They're maturing old mate.

I agree mostly and I think that is why it hasn't been a real focus for IA
Different markets have different preferences
I hired a Fiat 500 to drive around Sardinia and Sicily and then a Fiat Panda
I could see easily why the Italians loved to drive them in that environment
Wouldn't have one in Australia though.
Fiat managed to sell 2,000 vehicles in Australia of all models
Jeep managed just over 7,000 of all models combined. Less than 700 Gladiator 1,200 Wranglers
View attachment 7806254

Magic Mushroom has been around for a while...looks good on the Fiat.

 

[globalgregors]

Don't mention marrying your cousins please.
We have people on here from Tasmania, Wales and Kentucky and they may get offended

‘Consanguinity’ is your Word Of The Day, @DaveB.

 

[ECrider]

‘Consanguinity’ is your Word Of The Day, @DaveB.

1/5th of the world's population, so between you, I, DaveB, bemax and Trobex one of us must be in this bracket.

Slightly concerned that where I'm from there's a lot of families but not a lot of surnames - off to speak to my wife and cousin/sister

 

[trobex]

Original Defenders in AUS are now 'seemingly' collectables! The 2nd hand market for these is exceptionally high for what you get...

1/5th of the world's population, so between you, I, DaveB, bemax and Trobex one of us must be in this bracket.

Slightly concerned that where I'm from there's a lot of families but not a lot of surnames - off to speak to my wife and cousin/sister

I live in Yuppie Ville and reasonably well spread last name vs total pop count. However, I didn't originate from here... so there are questions!

As to the Defender's bubble bursting - this occurred when they released that MG looking trash can. Mind you, I have driven one and wow they are comfortable. No RHD footrest issue at all! They go quick, drive well, and yes Defender new breed is quite capable. And yes, I have already seen one on the side road being towed. A quick look at the New Defender forums and you can tell people really want the Old Defender back... enter Grenadier!

 

[grenadierboy]

I agree, the New Defender is superbly capable offroad and an amazing and in my eyes good looking bit of kit. Where it falls down is general reliability and the appalling JLR arrogance and indifference towards their customers. I hope and suspect that Grendiers will be on the road more often than any Land Rover product and for a decade or more longer. But had the same attitudes from Toyota drivers etc when I had my Discoveries “thats a pretend 4wd” and then you flick a switch and raise it up, put it in the right mode and drive circles around them while they are stuck

The new LR Defender is selling like hotcakes in Melbourne - 95% nevr go off bitumen and the main buyers are 40 something mothers

 

[DenisM]

The new LR Defender is selling like hotcakes in Melbourne - 95% nevr go off bitumen and the main buyers are 40 something mothers

I'm not surprised....It's relatively "square"in shape...a natural evolution of the Discovery 3 & 4, cavernous compared to many other SUVs, oodles of space for kids, sporting gear, school bags, family pets.... and ski gear...and able to access the "high country" for the family snow holiday in the winter..... or as "Zorba" might say "the whole catastrophe"!

 

[DCPU]

The new LR Defender is selling like hotcakes in Melbourne - 95% nevr go off bitumen and the main buyers are 40 something mothers

Defender sales are good in general, partly at the expense of cheaper models when competing for chips/parts on the wholesale side and partly at the expense of the Discovery in terms of retail sales.

 

[emax]

Doesn't look good for JLR, um, Tata ...