Americas Don't buy a Grenadier (Steering pump noise and HVAC issues)

[Zimm]

Its interesting you raise expectations based on owner priorities. Still scratching my head trying to understand why this seems to be such a big issue in the States as opposed to ROW? Do the rest of us have different expectations?

Before getting all philosophical and creating some nonexistent cultural or personal differences that only serve to negotiate your reality with something someone else is saying is their reality, I would look at production serial numbers to locate batch dates for the suppliers, and narrow down production dates to try to locate a material or process issue that may have damaged the pumps. Different markets have different rules, and by the rollout timelines, it appears as if initial production was done on a market by market basis which would also help explain any market differences.

 

[Zimm]

They didn’t send them all to the US (I assume you are being facetious). @Shopkeep is right - we have gone soft in the US. Look at the build thread - half of the Aussies are showing stuff they improvised and built themselves. In the US, we don’t even remember how to do that. I offer to take someone fly fishing - but they say the knots are too intimidating (there are 3 that are most essential). Their (Aussie) self-sufficiency and creativity is an indictment of our (US) consumer culture. We have been turned into passive economic cogs - laboring and consuming, entertaining ourselves in our digital reality. Our expectations have risen with our wealth. The more urbanized we are, the higher our expectations and more consumerist we become. On MULTIPLE occasions, the Aussie members have questioned why the US members are making such a big deal over certain things. They are right to do so - and we (US members) should maybe reflect a little on where that might be coming from.

Keep calling us out, Aussies - it’s good for us. It’s good to remember what’s essential and what is a luxury. Still - it would be nice if the steering pump weren’t so loud ;o)

LOL. What a bunch of drivel. Sorry.

How about something more simple. Maybe, our productivity and manufacturing ability has progressed to the point whereby quality functional products are easily achievable, and the norm, so that when a failure hits the market, it's that much more noticeable and really inexcusable.

One of the greatest, if not the greatest small tractors ever made, is the Ford N series. It's still awesome. But Ford couldn't replicate that tractor today. Ya know why? Their process today could not let them pump out something that bad if they wanted to. Every gripe one could have about that product off the showroom floor today v 1950, is easily and economically solvable. It simply could not get thru testing without being improved.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

LOL. What a bunch of drivel. Sorry.

How about something more simple. Maybe, our productivity and manufacturing ability has progressed to the point whereby quality functional products are easily achievable, and the norm, so that when a failure hits the market, it's that much more noticeable and really inexcusable.

One of the greatest, if not the greatest small tractors ever made, is the Ford N series. It's still awesome. But Ford couldn't replicate that tractor today. Ya know why? Their process today could not let them pump out something that bad if they wanted to. Every gripe one could have about that product off the showroom floor today v 1950, is easily and economically solvable. It simply could not get thru testing without being improved.

Sorry dude - just don’t have an interest in expending the emotional energy on steering pump noises. A shrug is all it’s going to get from me. Willing to grant there are some bad units - also appreciate the Aussies noting the fact that we, in the US, seem to have a whine at least as loud as the steering pump.

In the meantime, there’s a good sale going on at my local fly shop so I’m going to Waunakee to hang out.

 

[Zimm]

Lol - here's my purchase thread in case you are interested :https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/washington-state-to-washington-dc.12413812/

edit: I took a few mins and re-read the early days - it's clear I've loved my Grenadier since day one, but I think I also had a good idea of what I was getting into well before I picked it up.

And I'll repeat this again.

Everyone that talks about the lesser expectations or "knowing what they were getting into", in view that the gren is new to the market, is insulting the living shit out of the entire management and production team of Ineos. Show me any professional anywhere that would take solace in an outcome complaint with "we didn't expect any better out of you".

 

[Dokatd]

And I'll repeat this again.

Everyone that talks about the lesser expectations or "knowing what they were getting into", in view that the gren is new to the market, is insulting the living shit out of the entire management and production team of Ineos. Show me any professional anywhere that would take solace in an outcome complaint with "we didn't expect any better out of you".

Hah, I like this and agree. In business I would never accept "well, you tried your hardest but we always knew you would fail". That would be crushing!!!

 

[HereinDaRockies]

Sorry dude - just don’t have an interest in expending the emotional energy on steering pump noises. A shrug is all it’s going to get from me. Willing to grant there are some bad units - also appreciate the Aussies noting the fact that we, in the US, seem to have a whine at least as loud as the steering pump.

In the meantime, there’s a good sale going on at my local fly shop so I’m going to Waunakee to hang out.

just a shrug ? You posted a manifesto about how tough your sensibilities are. Anyone who is sensitive to such trivial matters are not in your category of ONLY doing “manly” activities with this car

 

[Zimm]

Sorry dude - just don’t have an interest in expending the emotional energy on steering pump noises. A shrug is all it’s going to get from me. Willing to grant there are some bad units - also appreciate the Aussies noting the fact that we, in the US, seem to have a whine at least as loud as the steering pump.

In the meantime, there’s a good sale going on at my local fly shop so I’m going to Waunakee to hang out.

That's the point. You're negotiating and denigrating the pump complaints of others with some crazy fictionalized anecdotal experience you have had with ozzy culture, without ever having heard firsthand how loud some of the pumps are. You admit to doing so BECAUSE you are pre disposed not to care in the first place. i.e. You didn't and don't care, so you tell some story blaming the victim and you invert that and present it as the cause of the issue, and not the 90db pumps Ineos is refusing to address to keep warranty costs down.

Having run a production plant and knowing with Ineos all repairs must go up the chain for pre approval and QA/QC evaluation, I personally find it hard to believe the complaints fell on deaf ears. Prior to victim blaming and attributing it to mass cultural hystria that only exists in the NA market, I'd sooner look at possible reasons the process of replacement has not been permitted to move forward. ... Such as, but certainly not limited to... the range of pumps that have a possible defect has been identified and may fall into such a broad spectrum, that a TSB would be fiscally devastating. To replace one in the age of internet communication is opening the box to replacing them all. Say, the production range is 10,000 units, there is no "standard" to qualify the noise level that presents failure, and assuming their cost for material, labor and organization is 2000each, thats 20,000,000 bucks to a small company with one model and no other profit sourse. ... I'd sooner assume that is influencing this predicament, than to believe a bunch of people that have never met each other are wacky.

It's true people often times see what they are trained to see, and one of our business functions is locating the sourse of power quality issues, so I'm pre disposed to listening to people for clues and trying to find the root issue. I have yet to be hired and find that issue to be group hysteria. You can claim my experience is by definition, anecdotal.

 

[[ Adam ]]

And I'll repeat this again.

Everyone that talks about the lesser expectations or "knowing what they were getting into", in view that the gren is new to the market, is insulting the living shit out of the entire management and production team of Ineos. Show me any professional anywhere that would take solace in an outcome complaint with "we didn't expect any better out of you".

Yeah? Well, you know, that's, just like uh, your opinion man.

There isn't a single project in the world that at some point doesnt get "Ok, time is up. We've got to go to production and we'll sort the rest out later." That's just reality, and in my opinion that's what's happened to the grenadier interior, etc. I don't think anyone @ ineos would be insulted, they did the best they could with the time given.

If anyone can disprove that the majority of time, effort and development costs went into the utility and capability of the Grenadier, and lesser portion to driver-comfort, NVH and the interior, I'll gladly change my position. But I don't think that's the case. I think covid era delays caused Ineos to rush the development of the interior, software, hvac, etc. leading to the vehicle we have now. For all who watched the development of this vehicle in real time, heard the focus of its development, and saw how quickly the prototypes went from a rolling tractor to production, we knew what we were getting into.

A timeline:

This photo is of IG001 in Marshall, VA in May of 2021. You were not permitted to open the doors, or see the interior - because there was none. (JimC sends his regards)

This photo is from March of 2022 - when they were touring the next prototype through the US with a largely 3d printed interior.

By October of 2022 Ineos was shipping their first production units. Ineos did a TON of development from 2017 - 2021, but obviously none of it was on the interior. Then in July of 2021, boom - they released the first interior shots.

This photo is from April of 2023 - When I drove the Grenadier on the PTO tour @ Buds Creek. I had full access to a non US vehicle, and drove it offroad in pretty hateful slop. I got to hear, drive, experience what I was buying.

If you listen to this video, at the very end you can hear the high pitched whine of (I believe) a power steering pump.

In November of 2023, I drove to Philadelphia to test drive this vehicle on-road:

Pretty sure I was a well informed buyer and knew what I was getting into, and I have a shit-eating grin every time I get behind the wheel of one.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

That's the point. You're negotiating and denigrating the pump complaints of others with some crazy fictionalized anecdotal experience you have had with ozzy culture, without ever having heard firsthand how loud some of the pumps are. You admit to doing so BECAUSE you are pre disposed not to care in the first place. i.e. You didn't and don't care, so you tell some story blaming the victim and you invert that and present it as the cause of the issue, and not the 90db pumps Ineos is refusing to address to keep warranty costs down.

Having run a production plant and knowing with Ineos all repairs must go up the chain for pre approval and QA/QC evaluation, I personally find it hard to believe the complaints fell on deaf ears. Prior to victim blaming and attributing it to mass cultural hystria that only exists in the NA market, I'd sooner look at possible reasons the process of replacement has not been permitted to move forward. ... Such as, but certainly not limited to... the range of pumps that have a possible defect has been identified and may fall into such a broad spectrum, that a TSB would be fiscally devastating. To replace one in the age of internet communication is opening the box to replacing them all. Say, the production range is 10,000 units, there is no "standard" to qualify the noise level that presents failure, and assuming their cost for material, labor and organization is 2000each, thats 20,000,000 bucks to a small company with one model and no other profit sourse. ... I'd sooner assume that is influencing this predicament, than to believe a bunch of people that have never met each other are wacky.

It's true people often times see what they are trained to see, and one of our business functions is locating the sourse of power quality issues, so I'm pre disposed to listening to people for clues and trying to find the root issue. I have yet to be hired and find that issue to be group hysteria. You can claim my experience is by definition, anecdotal.

I gave you the 10% concession - more than happy to grant there are some defective units out there. I would be surprised, however, if a defective production lot or series were allocated to the US and that were to be the explanation behind the higher complaint rates (or the decibel level of the complaints) from US owners (@Jeremy996 point). I think, rather, the explanation is what is exactly in front of our noses (@Shopkeep point). Sometimes the obvious answer is also the right answer. Will be thrilled when Ineos smooths these things out - and willing to acknowledge some owners have legitimate issues. Raise the point, take it to the dealer, go on a drive with a sales rep to compare yours to a couple of others on the lot.

 

[Barrett1]

I hope ineos doesn't waste any time trying to make the steering pump more quiet. I don't hear anyone complaining about steering pump failures. Some people seem quite concerned about what neighbors and bystanders think about the noise. Who cares? I hope they concentrate on making this think bullet proof, example, fixing the known front driveshaft issue. I could care less about steering pump noise, lack of electric seat controls, or any other of this whiny stuff. I bought the grenadier for its ruggedness and hopefully long term reliability.

 

[Dreadfully Distinct]

 

[globalgregors]

They didn’t send them all to the US (I assume you are being facetious). @Shopkeep is right - we have gone soft in the US. Look at the build thread - half of the Aussies are showing stuff they improvised and built themselves. In the US, we don’t even remember how to do that. I offer to take someone fly fishing - but they say the knots are too intimidating (there are 3 that are most essential). Their (Aussie) self-sufficiency and creativity is an indictment of our (US) consumer culture. We have been turned into passive economic cogs - laboring and consuming, entertaining ourselves in our digital reality. Our expectations have risen with our wealth. The more urbanized we are, the higher our expectations and more consumerist we become. On MULTIPLE occasions, the Aussie members have questioned why the US members are making such a big deal over certain things. They are right to do so - and we (US members) should maybe reflect a little on where that might be coming from.

Keep calling us out, Aussies - it’s good for us. It’s good to remember what’s essential and what is a luxury. Still - it would be nice if the steering pump weren’t so loud ;o)

Is there anything more satisfying than half-arsing and jerry-rigging your way across a hostile landscape?

Appreciate the compliment, possibly undeserved as Aussies also love a trip to ARB, and as mentioned the malfunctioning pumps are genuinely noisy.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Is there anything more satisfying than half-arsing and jerry-rigging your way across a hostile landscape?

Appreciate the compliment, possibly undeserved as Aussies also love a trip to ARB, and as mentioned the malfunctioning pumps are genuinely noisy.

It’s even better if you leave spare body parts behind in the process. In fairness, the US Grenadier purchase numbers are much higher than other markets - so even if we assume some sort of defect rate that is constant across markets, you would have a higher number of defective pumps in the US than anywhere else. But yeah, we are a bunch of Karen’s.

“America - Demanding to speak to your manager since 1776.”

 

[mcdoogs]

Sorry dude - just don’t have an interest in expending the emotional energy on steering pump noises. A shrug is all it’s going to get from me.

Well, a shrug and few thousand words on an internet forum.

 

[Dokatd]

Well, a shrug and few thousand words on an internet forum.

Hah, I was thinking the same thing. I sometimes even wonder if one or two people here are not being paid by Ineos in some fashion to soften the rhetoric about problems. Ok, that's a bit conspiracy theorist of me, but still.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Well, a shrug and few thousand words on an internet forum.

Next time I’ll post a video of me and everyone I meet absolutely not caring about the steering pump. A video is worth a few thousand words. But I’m sure everyone complaining has a defective one that is horribly loud.

 

[HereinDaRockies]

Next time I’ll post a video of me and everyone I meet absolutely not caring about the steering pump. A video is worth a few thousand words. But I’m sure everyone complaining has a defective one that is horribly loud.

Why are you so fixated on this non issue for you? Move on.

I don’t give a shit about the issue with the diff lock actuation procedure. I don’t go jam up that thread with useless filler

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Why are you so fixated on this non issue for you? Move on.

I don’t give a shit about the issue with the diff lock actuation procedure. I don’t go jam up that thread with useless filler

I hope they stay focused on the mission. And, I think our friends abroad kind of have a point.

 

[Max]

My particular life path has allowed me to travel around the world and learn from people with different perspectives. It always keeps things fresh and challenges me (in a good way). Plus, I live in Wisconsin - we don’t like to make a fuss if we don’t have to, and would much rather be chatting over a beer or a brandy Old Fashioned - or fishing or hunting. So, I welcome Aussies mocking us for our whining, I’ll approach steering pump noises philosophically, and my real concern is whether any of you know any good fishing spots. I figure the Grenadier can get me in (and out), so I’m good to go.

As mentioned, had a somewhat disastrous camping trip this week, swimming in mud, and had to throw all the gear in rather than pack it down. When I unloaded, the interior was - caked, shall we say. All hosed out and wiped down, no worries. Thank you, Ineos, for that! Much appreciated.

Australia's coastline is our fishing spot obviously for the saltwater varieties but we do have the freshwater trout and other species. Tasmania and Victoria but we do tend to jump across the ditch to New Zealand for the fly fishing is another level. I have fished around Australia and mainly SE Queensland including Sunshine Coast, Fraser Island. So when you are ready there are Gren owners on here from each corner of this great fishing spot, Australia

 

[HereinDaRockies]

I hope they stay focused on the mission. And, I think our friends abroad kind of have a point.

this issue doesn’t concern you. Your outsider’s viewpoint is not valued