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Bull/Roo Bars unsafe?

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I don’t think John is actually wrong on this, and he isn’t calling for a ban on bullbars, he is just saying here is some stuff you should know when you are deciding whether to put one on or not. If you followed every bit of advice he gave you would be driving either an Triton Ute or a Hyundai or Kia small-mid car with no accessories or modifications at all. Not even he expects you to actually follow all his advice, in pretty much all cases it’s hard to fault his logic and even harder to fault his engineering or physics, but it’s ultimately up to you to decide what you do with that knowledge. I have bought and still own several cars he absolutely says never to buy for a range of all logically sound reasons but I do it anyway knowing this stuff because people still buy things on gut and emotion rather than logic, and as long as you know that and are ok with it that’s fine. I can guarantee you that based in his criteria for picking a car which includes never buying from low volume or niche companies and he includes things like Skoda in that (I have 2 and I see them everywhere) he would recommend we all run a million miles from the Grenadier no matter how well built we think it is. But I am buying one anyway.
I wouldn't take what John says to heart, he always starts his vids with "my name is John and I get new cars cheap". I am of the belief that the automotive company's he can't do deals with he bags such as the VAG group Skoda included. the Skoda Octavia part of the VAG group, is built on the MQB platform shared with VW Golf and A3 Audi and is immensely strong, when first released its scores ( MQB ) were off the charts, and it shares drivelines with VW and Audi, so lots of spare parts.
A few months ago John released a video on car servicing oil contamination etc, and said it is distance not time when a car should be serviced so in other words if your service intervals are 6 months or 10,000km such as a Hilux wait until 10,000km is reached, and don't worry about the time. That video quickly disappeared and he put out a new one saying for automotive servicing time and km need to be strictly followed. His favourite car companies sponsors / masters must have been upset with that video, hence out with the old vid and in with the new vid.
There are many engineers including John we should listen to, he is a civil engineer if I remember, I would be more inclined to listen to auto engineers such as the ones in Magna Steyr when it comes to automotive matters.
 

trobex

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Seen how bad city drivers are lately (especially new MG drivers...) the 'roo bar' should hopefully crumple the fools rear end for those reversing into me at the local shops... I'll be keeping my bar on the order!!
 

Solmanic

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Seen how bad city drivers are lately (especially new MG drivers...) the 'roo bar' should hopefully crumple the fools rear end for those reversing into me at the local shops... I'll be keeping my bar on the order!!
One of the reasons I also selected side-steps is that like on our current vehicle it makes it impossible for any muppet to hit the side of the car with their door.
 

trobex

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One of the reasons I also selected side-steps is that like on our current vehicle it makes it impossible for any muppet to hit the side of the car with their door.
My wife has a nice CX-5 we look after it. Its front bumpers are a disgrace from imbeciles that cannot park, reverse, anything... just... how... it's so sad and we probably have to spend 1500 to get it ready for 'sale'.
 

Tazzieman

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he is a civil engineer if I remember
"a degree in mechanical engineering" on his website
Though a degree in anything doesn't mean you are an expert or authority. It's a starting point though!
 

muxmax

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025AB630-30BA-434A-8244-7F62C20566D5.jpegOne of the reasons I also selected side-steps is that like on our current vehicle it makes it impossible for any muppet to hit the side of the car with their door.
My biggest problem is my own offspring banging the doors against walls. I put these protectors on all doors to avoid chipping. Will be interesting to see how it looks underneath once I take them off by the end of the lease after four years. If it’s ok and if there is enough space between doors and chassis, I will do the same thing on the IG.
 

muxmax

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My biggest problem is my own offspring banging the doors against walls. I put these protectors on all doors to avoid chipping. Will be interesting to see how it looks underneath once I take them off by the end of the lease after four years. If it’s ok and if there is enough space between doors and chassis, I will do the same thing on the IG.
For whatever reason the app put my picture in your quote @Solmanic. Sorry. Still learning how to use this.
 

MrMike

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The first video in this thread - the BHP testing of vehicle crash safety - is an important one. Many modifications to vehicles can make a vehicle less safe, and its worth remembering how much engineering and testing goes into the factory-design of a vehicle. Many suspension lift-kits - by comparison - are hastily put together and are not subject to the same testing. Let's face it - anything put on the roof raises the center of gravity of a vehicle, thereby making it inherently less stable both on and off road. The same can be said for a lot of weight in front of the front axle. In my youth - not understanding much of anything - I put a heavy steel bumper and winch on the front of a 1988 Toyota 4-Runner and did not make any changes to the suspension to accommodate that extra weight. I am quite certain that the added weight contributed to an accident in which I totaled the car (but was fortunate to walk away without a scratch). There were unusual circumstances, for sure: I was driving late at night in nearly a foot of fresh snow, and this was before I ran dedicated snow tires in the winter. I crested a hill and started coming down around a corner, only to see a car in the middle of the road (teenagers out throwing spins in the snow), I had to go two wheels up on the embankment to avoid t-boning their car. After I got around them and back on the road, my car started fishtailing down the hill; there was a sheet of ice under the snow on this side of the hill. I ran off the road, took out a series of posts in a retaining fence, and then came to a halt when the vehicle got wrapped around a big steel post.

I've always believed that the added weight in front of the front axle contributed to my inability to regain control of the vehicle. This issue of adding weight in front of the front axle came up in an earliler thread on this forum (I don't remember the thread name), and I made the argument that added weight up front must be addressed in the suspension with heavier-rated springs/shocks (though I did not provide my personal anecdote for why it mattered to me so much). Vehicle manufacturers recognize this, and have multiple spring packages depending on vehicle specifications: gas engine vs diesel engine, steel bumper vs plastic bumpers, a front winch or not (available on some Jeep, Ram, and Ford vehicles).

I've also always believed that the steel bumper absorbed a huge amount of impact in my crash - perhaps saving my life. It was wrapped around the steel post like tissue paper, and visually, it just looked like it absorbed huge amounts of energy. So I was interested to see that the BHP tests showed greater intrusion into the cab (in particular the foot well) during a crash, when a vehicle has a heavy steel bumper.

One thing the video did not address was animal strikes, and these pose a different risk to driver and passengers than the crash-testing that was performed. There seem to be two distinct threats from an animal strike: (1) damage to the front end of the vehicle (radiator, or something else), making it undriveable; this could be a major problem if one is far from phone service or any other kind of help, and (2) after being struck by the bumper, the animal hits the windshield and this results in injury to the driver and/or front passenger (possibly resulting in loss of control of the vehicle). The BHP testing addressed the consequences of an impact to the bumper, and resulting intrusion into the cabin, but did not address the consequences of an animal strike: vehicle driveability or the secondary impact of the animal to the windshield.

It might be that the costs and benefits of a heavy steel bumper come down to specific circumstances: were appropriate adjustments to the suspension made? And perhaps - at what speed did the incident occur? I would guess that a steel bumper with a bull bar could provide 100% protection to a vehicle and its occupants in a relatively low-speed collision with an animal, whereas a stock vehicle would suffer some damage. But at high speed, maybe the steel bumper poses a threat to the vehicle occupants (as described in the video and associated pdf file).

In any case - maybe the key lesson is to be really thoughtful about any modifications to a vehicle.
I live in a regional area and deal with high speed crashes from time to time, some involving roo bars, in the last 25 years I have only once have had issues with a bar causing casualty extraction delays, this was in a light truck that hit a tree with a 5 tonne excavator on the back for added force. Bars aren't good for those that are hit with them and I think that they reduce the crumple zones in some vehicles which in turn causes more trauma to the occupants. (this is just an observation) I think Ineos are on the right track with their bar, offering more protection while not compromising on whatever factory safety they have.
 

MrMike

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My biggest problem is my own offspring banging the doors against walls. I put these protectors on all doors to avoid chipping. Will be interesting to see how it looks underneath once I take them off by the end of the lease after four years. If it’s ok and if there is enough space between doors and chassis, I will do the same thing on the IG.
You can buy PPF for the door edges, I've just fitted clear PPF to my partners RAV4
 

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Solmanic

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For whatever reason the app put my picture in your quote @Solmanic. Sorry. Still learning how to use this.
I thought it might have been some AI hocus pocus trying to interpret my words in picture form.
 

Nocrays

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It’s horses for courses.

If your Grenadier is going to be a glorified shopping cart then a roo bar probably isn’t the best accessory.

However my roobar has prevented all damage to my vehicle after several interaction with wayward critters in the bush. Roos, sheep and a wedge tail eagle have all failed the roobar test.
It’s also handy to string up a blind to protect the front end from grasshopper swarms.
I’m also getting the scrub bars to stiffen up the bar as well.
I wouldn’t be without it for the travelling I do.
 

Tom D

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I read over the UK legislation on bull bars. They are NOT illegal to fit, however they are now illegal to sell. This means that you either get a second hand one,(not easy with a 2023 car) or make one yourself….
Then you’d have to get it past your insurance company… and theres the above safety concerns for a non OEM fitment.
I might go down the home made route but it will be a ball ache.
Getting hold of the OEM Aussie spec one would be my ideal but that will likely be impossible. Detailed drawings would be nice though…
 

analogvernon

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That,s interesting. I used a half height one on an old 90 , it had lots of uses.
If we could get the drawings as a txt. file or another file that you can use with a laser cutter, that would save a lot of the hard work, we could just give to our favorite fabricator the file they could cut and weld or you could weld up then off to the powder coat company.
 

AnD3rew

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I read over the UK legislation on bull bars. They are NOT illegal to fit, however they are now illegal to sell. This means that you either get a second hand one,(not easy with a 2023 car) or make one yourself….
Then you’d have to get it past your insurance company… and theres the above safety concerns for a non OEM fitment.
I might go down the home made route but it will be a ball ache.
Getting hold of the OEM Aussie spec one would be my ideal but that will likely be impossible. Detailed drawings would be nice though…
You might need to buy an Aussie mate a present so that they feel the need to buy you a present and ship it to you.
 

Jeremy996

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I read over the UK legislation on bull bars. They are NOT illegal to fit, however they are now illegal to sell. This means that you either get a second hand one,(not easy with a 2023 car) or make one yourself….
Then you’d have to get it past your insurance company… and theres the above safety concerns for a non OEM fitment.
I might go down the home made route but it will be a ball ache.
Getting hold of the OEM Aussie spec one would be my ideal but that will likely be impossible. Detailed drawings would be nice though…
Not the whole story; winch bumpers are legal and still available. Most ARBs for sale in the UK are winch bumpers, new or used.
 

Tom D

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Interesting! Didn’t see that but helpful if true..
 

trobex

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I had to 'drag' a big roo out of my bar about 9 years ago (big steel ARB fitted on an old 3.0D ranger single cab) after a direct hit at 100k/h - it was that fast just bounded from behind some close shrubbery: BANG straight on the front end. The bar saved my car from a potential disaster or total incapacitation nearly 300 clicks from nearest shop! The roo was full size easy 80kg+... it hit between top bar and plate - and literally wedged between steel. The bar still folded back on to the bonnet 'just' and left 2 small dents that were able to be repaired. Radiator all other front-end metal was saved. There was more spring in the bar than I thought and that was the biggest thing I have come in to contact with. I would still run a bar in town use, to protect from poorly educated drivers and their cheap throw away cars they done give a rat about banging your sides, or those that can't reverse or even exit radius correctly!
 

trobex

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100% getting a roo bar. I've seen what "no" bar can do on a long trip (see ya Billy!) and lived first hand experience what a bar can do to save that radiator on a long trip!!! Even if it reduces the risk of catastrophe by 1/3 - it's a no brainer on rural long haul.
 

MrMike

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100% getting a roo bar. I've seen what "no" bar can do on a long trip (see ya Billy!) and lived first hand experience what a bar can do to save that radiator on a long trip!!! Even if it reduces the risk of catastrophe by 1/3 - it's a no brainer on rural long haul.
I live surrounded by the buggers.....it's a must for me.
 
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