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Axles - Comparing the IG Carraro Axle To Dana Axle

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Anyone familiar with both the IG chosen Carraro axle AND Dana axles common in the United States?
I'm not going for a "which one is better"... I'm just trying to figure out if this Carraro axle is liken to a Dana 30, 44, 60 etc., since I'm only familiar with them, and know nothing whatsoever about the Carraro axle chosen for the IG build. The point being to see what tire sizes, torque limits, and overall ruggedness.  What I keep hearing is that Carraro makes rugged stuff for tractors in Europe... but frankly that means nothing if this is a one-off new design... no stats, material composition, thicknesses etc. Anyone?
 

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Dana 44 HD would be the closest comparison 
 

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Maybe someone has an idea if one of those axles is the base for the IG ones
 

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[QUOTE username=bemax userid=8984275 postid=1332823629]Maybe someone has an idea if one of those axles is the base for the IG ones[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing that.  All I can guess with that so far is that it can't be either of the first two on the list of solid axles due to them coming with drum brakes, whereas the IG has disk brakes. I thought I remember one of the IG videos saying that the Carraro axle was made specifically for the IG, which would make sense cause there's gotta be some difference between a car and a tractor. 
 
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[QUOTE username=Spjnr userid=8443805 postid=1332821753]Dana 44 HD would be the closest comparison [/QUOTE]

Thank you :)  Curious though where'd you get that to know it?  I'd love to look into it.
 

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[QUOTE username=Ferrugenfish userid=9004165 postid=1332825393]

Thank you :)  Curious though where'd you get that to know it?  I'd love to look into it.[/QUOTE]

Rubicon 392 and gladiator i believe. That's the housing and diff centre, with slightly beefed up ends.
 
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[QUOTE username=Spjnr userid=8443805 postid=1332821753]Dana 44 HD would be the closest comparison [/QUOTE]

If this is the case, I am not impressed. I was expecting the equivalent of Dana 60s - given what everyone has been saying about the Grenadier being built like a tank. Most people who have the money to do an engine swap in a Jeep, upgrade to Dana 60s. Sure, the Wrangler 392 comes with Dana 44HD, which is burlier than their regular 44 (cast-iron knuckles, thicker axle tube, beefed up ring gears and pinion shaft - maybe other upgrades?), but the Grenadier mission (robust 4x4 that will last decades and stand up to abuse in remote locations for extended periods) calls for Dana 60s - IMHO
 

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I wouldn't be impressed or unimpressed just yet until you have some actual facts. 
I haven't seen any actual specifications on the axles other than they were developed in conjunction with Carraro and Magna and Carraro are supplying them. 
 

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[QUOTE username=stickshifter userid=8617054 postid=1332845496]

If this is the case, I am not impressed. I was expecting the equivalent of Dana 60s - given what everyone has been saying about the Grenadier being built like a tank. Most people who have the money to do an engine swap in a Jeep, upgrade to Dana 60s. Sure, the Wrangler 392 comes with Dana 44HD, which is burlier than their regular 44 (cast-iron knuckles, thicker axle tube, beefed up ring gears and pinion shaft - maybe other upgrades?), but the Grenadier mission (robust 4x4 that will last decades and stand up to abuse in remote locations for extended periods) calls for Dana 60s - IMHO[/QUOTE]

Yeah thats a very rough approximation. We don't have any specs yet so wait and see.

IN regards to Dana 60, would you have to be running fairly big tires to not run into diff clearance issues? as on a stock truck on 31.5s that could be an issue
 
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[QUOTE username=Spjnr userid=8443805 postid=1332848052]

Yeah thats a very rough approximation. We don't have any specs yet so wait and see.

IN regards to Dana 60, would you have to be running fairly big tires to not run into diff clearance issues? as on a stock truck on 31.5s that could be an issue[/QUOTE]

It depends on design. Dynatrac makes "Pro-Rock" versions of Dana 44 front axles, Dana 60 front and rear axles, and a Dana 80 rear axle. These are designed with excellent ground clearance, but with much more strength than standard Dana axles. If I were a billionaire designing the Grenadier for the American market, I would have reached out to Dynatrac to supply the axles.

https://www.dynatrac.com/
 

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Fair play. from what I've seen underneath the Grenadier, it certainly doesn't look under axled.

Hopefully we soon get some numbers to go on rather than just looks! 
 
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[QUOTE username=Spjnr userid=8443805 postid=1332848099]Fair play. from what I've seen underneath the Grenadier, it certainly doesn't look under axled.

Hopefully we soon get some numbers to go on rather than just looks! [/QUOTE]

Great to hear you - and others - report that the running gear looks strong - but yeah, I'm ready for actual data on the axles, gears, and crawl ratio.

With regard to the axles, I'm hoping that Carraro is delivering a product that will stand up to the torque of the B57 diesel (and slightly larger tires), and that they use the same axles for the B58. I really hope that Ineos isn't going to pair a "weaker" axle with the gas engine, like they have done with the transmission.

Axles matter, and they are much more expensive to replace than a Tie Rod, Drag Link, or Track Bar. I bent the housing in the front Dana 44 in my Jeep JKU. Granted, I made a mistake in snow-covered rocks, but it wasn't that bad a mistake... and I wasn't the only one to find a weakness in these axles. As a consequence, Jeep beefed them up for the JLU. I replaced the front axle of my JKU with a Dynatrac ProRock 44, and that was plenty strong for my use (stock 3.6 Pentastar engine, and 35-inch tires).
 

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Ineos have never said that the American market was a prime target for them. 
Top three are;

The UK:  nostalgia for old Defender, gentleman farmer, green laner (whatever that is), overnighter.
South Africa: NGO's, mines, red cross, over landers and hunters. Dual cab ute (backy?) and long wheelbase versions will be well received. 
Australia: A mixture of UK and SA Markets with the dual cab ute being the no 1 vehicle type sold in Australia and the long wheelbase (Troopy) being a definite winner. 

After that comes; 
Europe:  Similar to UK but they do like to travel and camp, mainly because there are so many fantastic places to see that you can drive to.  On motorway performance is important as well as some pretty rough and non maintained roads outside major countries and towns.

Finally;
North America: I have never been there so only what I have seen and read. The basic design does not really fit the US market at all. Not large enough, powerful enough or cheap enough. Not modular enough for the Jeep/bronco market and not luxurious enough for the SUV market. Maybe Canada will have more potential than the US.  
Asia: I haven't even heard more than a passing mention. 


Just my thoughts and happy to accept I may be wrong.
 
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[QUOTE username=DaveB userid=8923052 postid=1332849879]Ineos have never said that the American market was a prime target for them. 
Top three are;

Finally;
North America: I have never been there so only what I have seen and read. The basic design does not really fit the US market at all. Not large enough, powerful enough or cheap enough" {LOL}. "Not modular enough for the Jeep/bronco market and not luxurious enough for the SUV market. Maybe Canada will have more potential than the US.  

Just my thoughts and happy to accept I may be wrong.[/QUOTE]

I'll give my take as someone from the United States. 

I think the IG fits a niche in the U.S. similarly to the hole that was created with the LRDefender... it's basically those who want a closed cab work/fun vehicle hearty enough to tow both the family and a trailer. The United States has a higher number of extreme environments within close proximity than most countries.  For example, lots of high mountain ranges, rockies, long stretches of flat lands, large roads lending to towing lots of heavy equipment, all within the same country, which means we have extreme vehicles for those extremes.  The IG doesn't seem amazing as the king of any of those extremes and is more of an "all arounder"... but many want that here, too. 

As for the Jeep and Bonco - they're both lighter, more nimble rigs designed toward rock crawling - something very popular in the United States... hence the large tires many are concerned about the IG being able to adapt to over here.  (video of rock crawling).  "Off road" in Australia means something a little different than it does in the U.S. Here we go offroad for the sake of going off road, whereas in Australia it appears you're going off road to get somewhere... usually very long distances in which you must not break down (or else...).  When we break down, we're not THAT far from repair or towing, so some of our favorite vehicles can be less "bomb proof" and more refined for, say, climbing the toughest obstacles... even if we break parts doing so. Of course we also have desert areas where we don't want to break down which is where you see our rigs adapted very similarly to European/Australian rigs. 

The IG is significantly heavier than both of those (Bronco/Jeep) while being only very slightly larger in footprint. IG towing is basically double that of the Bronco and Jeep, at the expense of offroad prowess. The IG being a general work and off-road worthy rig isn't in direct competition with either of those... though they are all in the same "offroad worthy" vein. We in the U.S. don't really have anything like the IG since the Defender and Land Cruiser had their nuts removed in the latest models... and Land Cruiser isn't really being sold here anymore. The 4-Runner is also more inline with the Bronco and Jeep... lighter, doesn't tow much... more for playing in the snow/mud/rocks. It's clear to me that Bronco and Jeep are far superior to the IG offroad in terms of taming the extremes, but IG adds significant boost to towing capability and overall ruggedness in stock form, which many Americans value, particularly if they want a large cab vehicle instead of a truck bed. Our trucks get huge and can tow tons... but many people want to haul the family in the rain/snow while they tow, and the truck bed isn't always the best option for everyone, so the IG has it's place here... I just don't know how big of a place it has.

It's gonna be very interesting to see how it sells in the United States.  We generally respect the LRDefender and there is certainly a following here. I think it's just because our land has lots of fun obstacles on it so we like to "crawl" on them... really beautiful landscape while doing so... lots more elevation. If I'm not mistaken, there are more orders for the IG from North America than the rest of the world... can anyone confirm or disprove?  

Naturally we're not as keen on LandRover stuff... largely because European parts are very expensive over here and fewer mechanics are trusted to know how to fix them than Fords, GMs, Japanese rigs or Toyotas etc.. The IG makes tons of sense to me in Australia and the like (once you get more fuel capacity). That said, I think our farming families will be very interested in the IG as it's kind of a "do a range of thing pretty well" rig. It's not particularly powerful, flexible, and doesn't tow a ton, but it DOES do all of those things to a very acceptable degree, and that cannot be ignored. Americans are already looking for how to hone the IG to be great at what they really want it for, just like the rest of the world.  I hope launch goes well in Europe!!  We in The States are wiggling in our seats as you all get to play with them for probably more than a year before we do.  We are watching eagerly!  The spirit behind the IG is what ties us all together no matter which land we're on. 
 
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Ferrugenfish -

I agree with your assessment. I wrote a similar post a while back - though it was in a thread on tire size - here it is:

Markets differ geographically, and there are regional preferences that can have to do with culture, climate, local terrain, and local laws about lift-height, etc. I'm a little concerned that folks in design at Ineos are too influenced by the European market, and don't seem fully aware of market-preferences here in North America. I'm really hoping that the Grenadier finds a market-niche here in North America, but I worry that the tire-size will limit its appeal in its likely market-niche. My take on the North American market:

(1) Sport off-roading / lifestyle vehicles: Jeep Wrangler and Ford Bronco stand out in this category. Upper trims in these models come standard with 33-inch tires, and both offer a premium off-road trim with 35-inch tires from the factory. If you order the 35-inch tires, you get some important features: (a) appropriate gearing from the factory for the tire size (this is costly in the after-market, time-consuming, and may void your warranty), (b) guaranteed fitment with no-rubbing, (c) a full-size spare. The Grenadier is at a big disadvantage competing in this space - essentially offering only a 31 (almost 32) inch tire (265/70/R17, or 255/70/R18). Serious off-roaders (or people who like the look of big tires) will likely gravitate to Jeep or Ford, unless they are looking to spend a lot of money blazing a new trail with an after-market lift and larger tires on the Grenadier (a brand new vehicle with which the after-market has no experience). The Toyota 4-Runner is also in the sport off-roading / lifestyle niche, but it is much more of a "lifestyle" vehicle, or "all-arounder" than the Wrangler and Bronco, with better on-road comfort (better handling, less road-noise, more comfortable for long road-trip, etc.) but less able to compete in technical off-roading, especially rock crawling. A down-side to vehicles in this niche is their low payload, and low towing capacity - which is where the Grenadier has these vehicles thoroughly trounced. EDIT: Now Ford is offering the Bronco in the Raptor trim with 37-inch tires from the factory.

(2) The Daily Driver / All-Wheel Drive Vehicle: this is a huge category, with a huge range of capability and price: Toyota Rav 4, Subaru Forester, offerings from BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Landrover, Range Rover, etc. Folks who want an affordable all-wheel drive fall into one end of this category, and folks who want performance and/or luxury all-wheel drive fall into the other end. The Grenadier doesn't fit any where in this category, except for those who want its cool appearance, and are willing to give up on-road handling (car-like driving), in exchange for a vehicle that looks different than their neighbor's X5 or LR4. I think the Grenadier will run into the same problem as the Landcruiser 200-series in the U.S. - most people won't understand its advantages (durability, reliability, solid construction, etc.), and will instead see its shortcomings when compared to similarly priced sportier SUVs.

(3) The Work Vehicle: we don't really have mid-size work vehicles in the U.S. - especially not SUVs. Work vehicles in the U.S. tend to be full-size pickups (F150 / 1500), or more likely, heavy-duty pickups (F250 / 2500, F350 / 3500). These are big trucks with little in common with the Grenadier. The Ford Ranger is a mid-size pickup, and has better payload and towing numbers than most other mid-size pickups (sort of a mid-size work vehicle). Some folk will definitely cross-shop the Grenadier with mid-size pickups, but I don't really see the Grenadier in the "work" niche in the U.S.

(4) Overlanding / lifestyle vehicle: this is where the Grenadier best fits. Strong and durable construction, excellent payload and towing for its size (probably class-leading in both categories for a mid-size SUV), and a true four-wheel drive system (two-speed transfer case, locking diffs). Anyone who truly wants a mid-size overland vehicle will recognize the Grenadier as the best option, I'm just not sure how big that market is. We've got the Wrangler and Bronco crossing over into the light-duty end of this market, and big trucks from Ram and Ford on the heavy-duty end of the market.

That was really long-winded, and this is a thread on wheels & tires, so I'll boil it down to this: I'm a little concerned that the limited tire-sizes from the factory will limit the appeal of the Grenadier, and I really want this vehicle to succeed!
 
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[QUOTE username=stickshifter userid=8617054 postid=1332851591]Ferrugenfish -

I agree with your assessment. I wrote a similar post a while back - though it was in a thread on tire size - here it is:

Markets differ geographically.......... I really want this vehicle to succeed![/QUOTE]

Yup we said different things and yet the same thing.  I think Americans will WANT to love this, and many do already.  However there is a "...but for..." qualifier in the statement: "I love it... but for _______" (fill in the blank).  That blank isn't yet fully solidified as we're not sure exactly how the spec will come out, but as of now, the most glaring thing is factory tire size and 'no rub' guarantee of what we see as a "basic 33 inch tire on which many of us want to upgrade to 35 inches without having to replace half of the new suspension and re-torque the final drive ratio".  Those in other countries may see this as unnecessary for THEIR use, but frankly if you lived here on this land, many of you would also see the 33/35 inch tire (with room to grow) as the sweet spot.  We just have big rocks we like to go over... simple as that. 
 
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[QUOTE username=Ferrugenfish userid=9004165 postid=1332851700]

Yup we said different things and yet the same thing.  I think Americans will WANT to love this, and many do already.  However there is a "...but for..." qualifier in the statement: "I love it... but for _______" (fill in the blank).  That blank isn't yet fully solidified as we're not sure exactly how the spec will come out, but as of now, the most glaring thing is factory tire size and 'no rub' guarantee of what we see as a "basic 33 inch tire on which many of us want to upgrade to 35 inches without having to replace half of the new suspension and re-torque the final drive ratio".  Those in other countries may see this as unnecessary for THEIR use, but frankly if you lived here on this land, many of you would also see the 33/35 inch tire (with room to grow) as the sweet spot.  We just have big rocks we like to go over... simple as that. 
[/QUOTE]

Well said!

I really like that this forum is international (mostly folk from various European countries, Australia, the U.S. and Canada). It is great to hear perspectives from other places. But I think sometimes people's perspectives are overly shaped by their own geographic context, and they forget that other folk will have different needs (or wants) based on very different geographies. This is just my impression - but I think that when topics like tire size and power/torque come up, there is a divergence between the American and the European perspectives. It is my belief that the differences in opinion on these topics are largely shaped by differences in geography and topography. As a consequence, I keep an open mind, and I do not criticize folk for having a different opinion than my own. I'd like to politely suggest that we all try to remember that how we intend to use the vehicle may not be how other folk intend to use it.
 
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[QUOTE username=stickshifter userid=8617054 postid=1332853932]

Well said!

I really like that this forum is international (mostly folk from various European countries, Australia, the U.S. and Canada). It is great to hear perspectives from other places. But I think sometimes people's perspectives are overly shaped by their own geographic context, and they forget that other folk will have different needs (or wants) based on very different geographies. This is just my impression - but I think that when topics like tire size and power/torque come up, there is a divergence between the American and the European perspectives. It is my belief that the differences in opinion on these topics are largely shaped by differences in geography and topography. As a consequence, I keep an open mind, and I do not criticize folk for having a different opinion than my own. I'd like to politely suggest that we all try to remember that how we intend to use the vehicle may not be how other folk intend to use it.[/QUOTE]
 

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Hi Stickshifter and Guru,

thank you very much !

I see it exactly the same way! There is nothing to add!
 
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Finally I have to speak up….

I am an Englishman/US citizen/lived for years in Aussie outback and have a professional Landrover Defender/Series shop …in the US. So it’s fair to say I have an extensive and varied world view. 
It amazes me that there are (pretty much on any forum) the number of amateurs who just because they can go out and bolt on various bits to their respective car/truck/motorcycle/bicycle seem to know so much more than the professional manufacturers and designers.?
Obviously Companies design/build/purchase parts and vehicles just to p*** off those “experts” who know better.

The Grenadier won’t be perfect for everyone in every way but I’m really looking forward to getting mine next year. I implore all those who want to comment about bad design etc to think before they post. Do you really think Ineos are going to suddenly bin their axles/engine/gearbox/wheel choice because someone on a forum doesn’t agree with their decision.?

Rant over….
 
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