Autocar article on INEOS Auto future

[Tazzieman]

Y the other a huge dive watch with lots of buttons.

The true Tactical Man wears a thin discreet watch that doesn't affect his ability to reach deep into the engine bay, or snag on the cliff he is climbing.
It helps to fly under the radar of overcompensation.
(Which admittedly a large 4x4 including the IG , is to some extent.)

 

[DenisM]

The true Tactical Man wears a thin discreet watch that doesn't affect his ability to reach deep into the engine bay, or snag on the cliff he is climbing.
It helps to fly under the radar of overcompensation.
(Which admittedly a large 4x4 including the IG , is to some extent.)

Interesting Tazzieman, my wife thought the IG had "grown" when we had a look at the PTO version in the Brisbane showroom just a few days after driving a similar one at Mt Tambourine. However it's only about 100mm in all dimensions larger than our 2019 Hyundai Santa Fe! There's more room lengthways in the Santa Fe cabin between the rear hatch and the front seats than the IG, but the IG has a longer bonnet...

 

[Tazzieman]

Interesting Tazzieman, my wife thought the IG had "grown" when we had a look at the PTO version in the Brisbane showroom just a few days after driving a similar one at Mt Tambourine. However it's only about 100mm in all dimensions larger than our 2019 Hyundai Santa Fe! There's more room lengthways in the Santa Fe cabin between the rear hatch and the front seats than the IG, but the IG has a longer bonnet...

We had 2 Santa Fes in the past decade. Great cars, and pretty big - but I doubt anyone would consider them as overcompensating for anything..
A similar sized 4x4 however stereotypes you as "the sort of person who..."

 

[DCPU]

Moreover, he said INEOS had employed many former MB engineers who used to work on the G Wagen and they were pushing for it..

It's odd that a company set up to go in a different direction to the established auto manufacturers then decides to go in the same direction; or maybe it's not if the only people you employ come from those very companies.

 

[DCPU]

"annual model-year updates of the Grenadier."

Aren't we getting monthly updates already?

I'm almost certain that right at the beginning of Projekt Grenadier, when Ineos were saying they wanted to do things differently, build a vehicle for life, etc, they referenced the annual updating of other manufacturers as exactly the thing they wanted not to do as a point of differentiation.

 

[klarie]

It's odd that a company set up to go in a different direction to the established auto manufacturers then decides to go in the same direction; or maybe it's not if the only people you employ come from those very companies.

There's two topics - the core Grenadier - a pretty down to earth vehicle. Indeed an utility. - so this is what Sir Jim wanted as much as we do.
The other topic - Ineos must make money. Also there is the regulatory part. This means offer vehicles with extreme low to no emission otherwise penalty - and this will happen if Ineos grows from a niche market player in a regular automotive vendor. - So they have to. To the topic of make money - of course if there is a piece of the cake to be cut off in providing a lifestyle vehicle too. Why not?
It is not what we need - but any of those vehicles sold help Ineos Automotive to retain and grow its market and allows the real Grenadier to survive and to evolve as a vehicle on the market.
Indeed . improved wipers - autowipers, a split aircon - and some headup display in front of driver would be convenient but a nice to have not a must.

 

[emax]

I wonder if "annual updates" is just a promise to suggest that the "Grenadier will be continuously improved". The question is whether they can even keep such a promise.

Aside from a luxury version that might come with air suspension and electronic all-wheel drive, which doesn't interest me at all, improvements are not a defined term. If they are purely technical, invisible so to speak, they can perhaps be retrofitted if they are worth the money. But no one can expect the development of a product to be frozen just because they just bought it. That is the way a product should develop, otherwise it will be dead sooner or later.

For the rest, which comes to my mind:

• Facelifts? I don't care about that.
• More horsepower? I don't care.
• Air suspension? No, thanks.
• Electronic bells and whistles? No, thanks.
• Less fuel consumption? Yes, interesting. But hard to achieve. In the 5% range, I wouldn't care. And more seems difficult without either significantly less weight or an even more significant aerodynamic refresh. And in particular the latter one is what would probably make the Grenadier look as misshapen as all the other amorphous lumps rolling around.

There are only a few things I would like to see on the Grenadier:

• Auto-dimming rearview mirrors inside and out. That's an invisible helper that I've come to appreciate. But at least for the interior mirror, there will probably be aftermarket solutions.
• Climate control with zones.
• Adaptive cruise control.

And that's it.

But none of them I miss enough to worry about, as they are just "nice to haves" for me.

I ordered the Grenadier as is. Everything else, if it is seriously "updated", is something else. And there are no miracles to be expected.

And even if an update has an effect on the selling price of a Grenadier, it is far from clear in which direction. Apart from that, this question will only arise in maybe 20 years anyway.

 

[grenadierboy]

There's two topics - the core Grenadier - a pretty down to earth vehicle. Indeed an utility. - so this is what Sir Jim wanted as much as we do.
The other topic - Ineos must make money. Also there is the regulatory part. This means offer vehicles with extreme low to no emission otherwise penalty - and this will happen if Ineos grows from a niche market player in a regular automotive vendor. - So they have to. To the topic of make money - of course if there is a piece of the cake to be cut off in providing a lifestyle vehicle too. Why not?
It is not what we need - but any of those vehicles sold help Ineos Automotive to retain and grow its market and allows the real Grenadier to survive and to evolve as a vehicle on the market.
Indeed . improved wipers - autowipers, a split aircon - and some headup display in front of driver would be convenient but a nice to have not a must.

Imagine overlanding in this!

 

[grenadierboy]

I wonder if "annual updates" is just a promise to suggest that the "Grenadier will be continuously improved". The question is whether they can even keep such a promise.

Aside from a luxury version that might come with air suspension and electronic all-wheel drive, which doesn't interest me at all, improvements are not a defined term. If they are purely technical, invisible so to speak, they can perhaps be retrofitted if they are worth the money. But no one can expect the development of a product to be frozen just because they just bought it. That is the way a product should develop, otherwise it will be dead sooner or later.

For the rest, which comes to my mind:

• Facelifts? I don't care about that.
• More horsepower? I don't care.
• Air suspension? No, thanks.
• Electronic bells and whistles? No, thanks.
• Less fuel consumption? Yes, interesting. But hard to achieve. In the 5% range, I wouldn't care. And more seems difficult without either significantly less weight or an even more significant aerodynamic refresh. And in particular the latter one is what would probably make the Grenadier look as misshapen as all the other amorphous lumps rolling around.

There are only a few things I would like to see on the Grenadier:

• Auto-dimming rearview mirrors inside and out. That's an invisible helper that I've come to appreciate. But at least for the interior mirror, there will probably be aftermarket solutions.
• Climate control with zones.
• Adaptive cruise control.

And that's it.

But none of them I miss enough to worry about, as they are just "nice to haves" for me.

I ordered the Grenadier as is. Everything else, if it is seriously "updated", is something else. And there are no miracles to be expected.

And even if an update has an effect on the selling price of a Grenadier, it is far from clear in which direction. Apart from that, this question will only arise in maybe 20 years anyway.

Emax - during the drive days I have attended - more than one IA representative has mentioned in conversation that the weight of the Grenadier is something they are very aware of and I wonder if their "annual updates" will seek to try and shave off some of that 2.7 tonnes

As many here have commented (recently) weight is the penalty paid for extreme robustness but leads to other issues like needing a larger engine with more HP, lower fuel consumption, less nimble handling and stronger related parts (which themselves are heavier).

Maybe in the future, newer materials and existing design that proves to be over engineered may provide opportunities to materially reduce the weight of the second or third edition Grenadier

 

[klarie]

Imagine overlanding in thisView attachment 7808839!

IMHO.. but I know a guy who does overlanding with a Hummer H2 .. So no need to imagine..

 

[emax]

Emax - during the drive days I have attended - more than one IA representative has mentioned in conversation that the weight of the Grenadier is something they are very aware of and I wonder if their "annual updates" will seek to try and shave off some of that 2.7 tonnes

As many here have commented (recently) weight is the penalty paid for extreme robustness but leads to other issues like needing a larger engine with more HP, lower fuel consumption, less nimble handling and stronger related parts (which themselves are heavier).

Maybe in the future, newer materials and existing design that proves to be over engineered may provide opportunities to materially reduce the weight of the second or third edition Grenadier

Yes, completely agree.

But that's what I meant with "is something else".

And maybe we'll then hear the pussies complaining "on the cost of robustness!". You can never get it right for everybody. I'd appreciate less weight - if done right. But I'd be still happy with mine.

 

[AWo]

If that is true that the split gearbox get's too hot and its too weak for full engine power (reason for reduced power output of the engine), the vehicle weight will have another drawback. More weight to move leads to higher temperatures in the gearbos. If its oil cooler is in the bumper its operation depends on slipstream. I just try to imagine how that will work under conditions, where high torque is needed (sand dunes) while driving slow (sand dumes) but with high revs under hot conditions (sand dunes).

AWo

 

[klarie]

If that is true that the split gearbox get's too hot and its too weak for full engine power (reason for reduced power output of the engine), the vehicle weight will have another drawback. More weight to move leads to higher temperatures in the gearbos. If its oil cooler is in the bumper its operation depends on slipstream. I just try to imagine how that will work under conditions, where high torque is needed (sand dunes) while driving slow (sand dumes) but with high revs under hot conditions (sand dunes).

AWo

I don't think so - they tested it a lot in Africa and hot environments. - The problems were in the beginning when no Oilcooler was there and there is something of a "difference" to what temperature the transfercase oil need to be cooled down. What is "too high" in temperature ?
Indeed tremec is of mexican origin.. they should now about hot temperatures.. At least I know about Pajero and Jeep transfercases with chains..
I d' rather prefer the tremec with cog wheels only.

 

[@nd]

Interesting:

the way things are going we will all be getting a 24 model

 

[AWo]

I don't think so - they tested it a lot in Africa and hot environments. - The problems were in the beginning when no Oilcooler was there and there is something of a "difference" to what temperature the transfercase oil need to be cooled down. What is "too high" in temperature ?
Indeed tremec is of mexican origin.. they should now about hot temperatures.. At least I know about Pajero and Jeep transfercases with chains..
I d' rather prefer the tremec with cog wheels only.

Understand, but every car ist tested in hot and cold climates and in all aspects. Nevertheless they still have problems, here and there. Testing doesn't mean solved. It can lead to a complete solution, a partial soution (to set the limits closer) or to even to none solution (if it is acceptable for most situations). And if you keep in mind, that the Grenadier is pushed out with a lot of force which even led to cars getting repaired at the dealer, I doubt that each and every problem was addressed. And a gearbox is nothing, where problems always get fixed quick and easy. The cooler will help, that's for sure. But I'm not after these fine videos with Grenadiers driving in a chain over tracks at a good speed through Morocoo, I'm referring to slow drives through sand dune fields for an extended period of times. We saw 4x4s with diesel particle filters where the engine went into the emergency mode, because a filter cleaning wasn't possible while a lot of exhaust gas was produced at the same time (engines needs to run for a certain amount of time at a certain speed to start the filter cleanin program. In some countries you can do that while the car is stationary, but not everywhere). Different thing, I know, but these cars have also been tested in hot climate but that issue was either accepted or not known. The three guys from Grand Tour tested the new Discovery with Limited Slip Clutches in the rear axle. If you drive often enough in small circles you get the clutches that they heat up and close 100% (to have no friction and cool down). While that is fine for loose ground, the next step ist to open them 100% if they do not cool down enough. That is not what you want in bad terrain. Also another example of something which was tested, build but still has drawbacks. BTW, in the German part of this forum a guy reports that his transfer box was tested at a French dealer by Ineos technicians and found OK. So it seems that at least a few problem boxes might pop up...tested or not.

The funny thing is....if we talk about LED light fo example, fear is expressed over and over again that one light could fail in the deep of Africa, at night, in hazardous environment and that is an absolute no-go to use these LED-lights! But when you talk about another scenario which might even be worse than that (a broken gearbox or a stuck car) it is claimed that these are only extreme situations, which one will never will be exposed to....

AWo

 

[emax]

Andreas,

you're spoiling my day.

MY GRENADIER ARRIVED! (at the agent)

 

[AWo]

Sorry! i apaologize.

And already had a look at your new car?

AWo

 

[Krabby]

I wonder if "annual updates" is just a promise to suggest that the "Grenadier will be continuously improved". The question is whether they can even keep such a promise.

Aside from a luxury version that might come with air suspension and electronic all-wheel drive, which doesn't interest me at all, improvements are not a defined term. If they are purely technical, invisible so to speak, they can perhaps be retrofitted if they are worth the money. But no one can expect the development of a product to be frozen just because they just bought it. That is the way a product should develop, otherwise it will be dead sooner or later.

For the rest, which comes to my mind:

• Facelifts? I don't care about that.
• More horsepower? I don't care.
• Air suspension? No, thanks.
• Electronic bells and whistles? No, thanks.
• Less fuel consumption? Yes, interesting. But hard to achieve. In the 5% range, I wouldn't care. And more seems difficult without either significantly less weight or an even more significant aerodynamic refresh. And in particular the latter one is what would probably make the Grenadier look as misshapen as all the other amorphous lumps rolling around.

There are only a few things I would like to see on the Grenadier:

• Auto-dimming rearview mirrors inside and out. That's an invisible helper that I've come to appreciate. But at least for the interior mirror, there will probably be aftermarket solutions.
• Climate control with zones.
• Adaptive cruise control.

And that's it.

But none of them I miss enough to worry about, as they are just "nice to haves" for me.

I ordered the Grenadier as is. Everything else, if it is seriously "updated", is something else. And there are no miracles to be expected.

And even if an update has an effect on the selling price of a Grenadier, it is far from clear in which direction. Apart from that, this question will only arise in maybe 20 years anyway.

I'd take a few extra ponies, but I'm in agreement with most of your list. Admittedly, I am not an adaptive cruise fan and choose to use "normal" CC in our Outback (and my GMC before I sold it). Auto-dimming mirrors, however, I'd check that box immediately. I retrofitted a dimming mirror from Amazon in my FJ80 and it worked great, but getting exterior ones that dim might prove to be a challenge. Oh, I'd also like an upgraded stereo but that's been discussed elsewhere.

 

[emax]

Sorry! i apaologize.

And already had a look at your new car?

AWo

I called my agent for an update, and that's what he told me. So not yet.

But I'll very likely go to see it soon.

 

[bemax]

Imagine overlanding in thisView attachment 7808839!

So what