Video from AllOffroad 4x4 Adventures TV to start at 9:00 AM

emax

Prolific Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
A rock crawler review. Might have some points for his personally intended use.

For me, as I want to overland with this car and I am in Europe, they simply don't apply.  No word about the pros: motors, gearbox etc.

So to me, he seems a bit biased.
 

Cavaleiro

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
A critical article that arouses interest for this very reason. However, some criticisms are premature and, in the absence of driving experience, possibly premature. Other criticisms are certainly justified: Pedals and space in the footwell for right-hand drive, or surprisingly missing options such as: Additional fuel tank or even a parking heater.
The points of criticism weight and ground clearance... the car will certainly still slim down, the ground clearance will certainly be a compromise - and chassis modifications and height adjustments will certainly be a requirement for one or the other later on.
The price is often criticized in general, but the demand confirms it and also benchmarks with possible competitors. Btw, are there actually order figures from Ineos - how many vehicles have already been ordered?

Aftermarket will still take its time. The range of the gasoline engine is almost impossible without an additional tank - I may switch to the diesel. The accessories already offered by Ineos are extensive, third-party suppliers will clearly need the vehicle first.PS his reference vehicles are partly modified. Modification possibilities yes also a criterion for him I think just here Ineos has provided many possibilities and also thought much further than others, eg electrical connections on the roof and additional switches inside, airline rails outside etc..

Let's wait and see and he also says in conclusion that he may revise criticisms as soon as he drives the vehicle.Best Regards
Rui
 

IG Pop

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
What about the “death wobble” he mentions and shows in the video at -11:45 minutes?
 

emax

Prolific Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
I remember such observations from some very early videos about the Grenadier. But I haven't seen this any more in younger videos.

He should have said, from which prototypes this was.
 

rovie

Contributor
People who think they know everything better are everywhere. Especially in youtube channels, but also in forums. I think everyone has to decide for themselves whether the vehicle meets their requirements or not. The priorities are different. There are several other vehicles on the market. You're bound to find something suitable. In any case, I'm looking forward to the summer and hope that the INEOS production slot can be met. I greet all 4x4 friends, even if they are critical of the Grenadier.
 

Shaky

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
He raises some valid points, but they are based on not a lot of knowledge and certainly even less experience of the final product at this point. I couldn’t give a monkeys about extended tanks as living in the UK I am never any further than about 25 miles from a filling station somewhere. For the UK I live in a very rural area and there is one 4 miles down the road. The one thing that is a slight concern to me is the footwell in RHD vehicles. That footrest does look huge and there is nothing worse than sitting in a vehicle and getting the feeling your not sitting straight. That will really P me off, seeing as the early adopters will probably get to see this for the first time when they have already paid for it. Overall I don’t know this guy, I don’t follow his Chanel so I don’t know if he is a “I told you so” expert who is just setting himself up to deliver that very line. He countered his own argument when he brought up garages in the middle of Australia and said there wasn’t any, and then went on to show his defender being lifted onto a wagon because mechanics in the interior refused to work on it. Sounds as though there is a need for some different mechanics if they want to pick and chose what work they take on in the middle of no where. 
 

ADVAW8S

Contributor
Founding Guard
Honey we have bills to pay, time to drive up views on my channel with a opinion piece on the hottest 4x4 right now.  When you look his largest amount of views has been the Ineos opinion pieces.  
 

emax

Prolific Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
> I don’t follow his Chanel so I don’t know if he is a “I told you so” expert

I had subscribed to his channel, but do not actively follow him. The videos I have seen show a very experienced offroader from which you can learn a lot.

However, his claims are very high and he is apparently a very technical offroader. In the video above you see him driving extremely difficult rock sections so you can get an idea of what he expects the Grenadier to be able to do. This is way above my expectations.

To make a long story short: The Grenadier, as it currently is, can not satisfy his needs. As an all purpose and high quality 4x4 car the Grenadier simply has a different target audience.

I think, that he would in fact love to have one. But for him, without a ground clearance of at least 16" and at least 35" tires, he could not do what he thinks are the minimum required capabilities of a 4x4 car.
 

CountyV8

Contributor
Hi all

Regarding 1st gear being too fast I have been around the Appley farm course shown in the video at no time during the decent was the speed too fast. They seem to have used different video clips to make a more entertaining film for the viewer. The course was very wet and muddy during my test ride in the prototype vehicle and at no time was traction broken during the down hill sections.

Regarding the so called death wobble this still from the video he showed seems to show components that are either worn or out of adjustment !


 

I think that this may be the transmission cooler so its well out of the way ?????
 

And another thing  he seems to have used one of my annotated images
 
 

Ferrugenfish

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Certainly varying views on the IG, and the gent in this video is no exception.  Personally I think he's spot on for what I want.  It's not that it's supposed to come out of the factory as a rock crawler, but rather that it shouldn't require replacing the whole suspension and final drive to do so. It's a 4x4 after all.  For those in the UK planning to just drive this locally, the IG seems great (no real need for larger tires, suspension geometry, final drive ratio, and more fuel), but Ineos is a business and as such is trying to sell to the world which legitimizes this content creator's points.  I think the IG team has done a great job in so many ways as creating a new vehicle, and everything around it, is a behemoth undertaking.  I can't necessarily imagine anyone doing it better on the first run.  That said, most of what this guy points out are clear ways in which the IG should improve if it wants to reach world wide success.  The ability to conform this to what you want is key, and there isn't yet enough room to modify for modern standards of off-road specs, particularly when it comes to suspension, tire size and final drive ratio. He's totally right about the Eaton lockers too.  They have their place, just not on something that's supposed to be very rugged.  Overlanders and crawlers both would benefit from compressed air on a rig, so might as well replace the Eaton with an ARB.  That way you can split off of the air compressor for filling your own tires and other uses for compressed air. 

I see people saying this guy doesn't have much ground to stand on because he hasn't driven it himself.  The guy has a massive degree of experience, and anyone who has any experience would recognize that, unless their experience is limited to driving on flat land.... this is a 4x4.... the world does more than overland across Oz. I'm certain that many people agree with him but feel rude saying, and there are lots of fan boys out there scared to be critical, so I give this content creator a lot of credit for respectfully being frank.  The Ineos team has the balls to start this project... they also have the balls to take constructive criticism that their potential customers have.

Despite mostly agreeing with this content creator, I'm also super excited that Ineos is doing this at all.  I'm let down that most of the industry is shying away from box framed, solid axle'd rigs; trading metals for luxury goods - so I'm very grateful someone is offering this extension of solid rigs to the world.  The Grenadier then is such a breath of fresh air, brings us back to our sense of freedom, adventure and self sufficiency in potential rough times. A hole has clearly been made in the market for such a rig, and of course it can't tick everyone's boxes all at once... just like politics.  The learning curve is unavoidable and from the looks of it they're taking it in stride.  I really look forward to driving one of these in a bit more than a year's time, or whenever available in the U.S. 
 

CheJ

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
@Ferrugenfish

Whilst Stefan does have plenty of experience and makes some valid points I think there are a few things which are a bit of a stretch in his video.#1 - Servicing locations being mainly where population centres are. This is the case with all manufacturers to some extent. When you’re in the outback you just use local mechanics. To illustrate the point, to my knowledge there isn’t a single dealership service centre for any particular make in Coober Pedy - there are however at least three local workshops that will work on any car you bring in. Stefan cites a single example of a mechanic turning him away, I somehow doubt that this one mechanic is illustrative of every mechanic in outback Australia. To further illustrate the point, NSW State Police highway patrol use the BMW 530D. This has the same B57 engine used in the Grenadier. You can see these vehicles as far out as Broken Hill which for those that dont know is a mining town 1,100km inland from Sydney. Those are being serviced somewhere and I doubt its the BMW service in Adelaide, 500km away.#2 - Whilst the footrest, fuel capacity, etc. are fair criticisms, he doesn’t keep a fair and balanced perspective on the fact he is looking at a prototype that is being used to test the vehicle and find flaws in its design that can be fixed in production vehicles. This happens behind the scenes for other vehicles but Ineos have been very open with their programme. Unfortunately some cannot entertain this concept and treat the prototype as if it is sitting on the dealership floor, ready to be sold.#3 - He seems to compare the vehicle to his modified examples. Of course once upon a time those vehicles were new and unmodified and it is that “baseline” vehicle we should be comparing it to. Any global vehicle is a compromise and I think the Grenadier is a very fair compromise that will provide a good base vehicle for customers to modify to their purposes.
 

Ferrugenfish

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
[QUOTE username=Che userid=8996982 postid=1332906584]@Ferrugenfish

Whilst Stefan does have plenty of experience and makes some valid points I think there are a few things which are a bit of a stretch in his video.#1 - Servicing locations being mainly where population centres are. This is the case with all manufacturers to some extent. When you’re in the outback you just use local mechanics. To illustrate the point, to my knowledge there isn’t a single dealership service centre for any particular make in Coober Pedy - there are however at least three local workshops that will work on any car you bring in. Stefan cites a single example of a mechanic turning him away, I somehow doubt that this one mechanic is illustrative of every mechanic in outback Australia. To further illustrate the point, NSW State Police highway patrol use the BMW 530D. This has the same B57 engine used in the Grenadier. You can see these vehicles as far out as Broken Hill which for those that dont know is a mining town 1,100km inland from Sydney. Those are being serviced somewhere and I doubt its the BMW service in Adelaide, 500km away.#2 - Whilst the footrest, fuel capacity, etc. are fair criticisms, he doesn’t keep a fair and balanced perspective on the fact he is looking at a prototype that is being used to test the vehicle and find flaws in its design that can be fixed in production vehicles. This happens behind the scenes for other vehicles but Ineos have been very open with their programme. Unfortunately some cannot entertain this concept and treat the prototype as if it is sitting on the dealership floor, ready to be sold.#3 - He seems to compare the vehicle to his modified examples. Of course once upon a time those vehicles were new and unmodified and it is that “baseline” vehicle we should be comparing it to. Any global vehicle is a compromise and I think the Grenadier is a very fair compromise that will provide a good base vehicle for customers to modify to their purposes.[/QUOTE]

I hear that Che.  The servicing topic definitely seems to be a "we'll see" one.  Seems natural that a small vehicle company would have fewer servicers at first, then more as it becomes popular.  The engine and tranny come in many other vehicles so I can't imagine it taking an unnatural amount of time for "Joe's Garage" to eventually figure out. Suspension is all brand new, but good mechanics should be able to look at the schematics and figure it out over time.  We'll see. 

Yea I would hope that Ineos would get rid of that tiny foot area for the driver in right-side driving vehicles.  I'd hate that.  Fortunately for me if I bought one it would be on the left. We'd also get a 100 liter tank for some reason. Hopefully the final version doesn't have that ramp crowding right side driver's feet. But as for his thoughts on it, he's going off of what he sees.  This is part of feedback to the developers, which is important, and as you say, Ineos is trying to listen to people. 

I think I disagree with you slightly on your third point. The Grenadier is touted to be a very offroad worthy vehicle, but the control arms are really too short to boast as such. Just because many people don't want/need 35" tires doesn't mean that many people won't want/need them for their offroad circumstances. If it was touting to be "good enough" offroad, they'd be spot on with those control arms and their inability to take what is now considered "the new 33" tire" (the 35"). 35's are no longer considered to be huge, and many vehicles are offering them straight out of the factory.  So for the Grenadier to require replacing control arms and replace parts to change the final drive ratio to drive properly just to get 35's on there... well to many of us, that's not a "purpose built" off-roader, even if we fully understand that it's not purposed specifically as a rock crawler.  Rock crawlers typically start at 35" and go up... 37.... 40... 42 etc. That is splitting hairs a bit, but that's the side of that fence that I'm on. Maybe that's because I'm in the U.S. where mountains are tall and rocks are big.  Most of Europe and Australia have very small mountains and crawling isn't nearly a big of a thing as it is here.  Even though you might be able to fit 35's under the rig with a lift, it does throw off the geometry of the short control arms enough to degrade ride experience, handling, and wheel travel at least in one direction. Same with final gear ratio.  We drive over 11,000 feet in elevation here in the U.S., so while towing there is a very significant power loss to overcome and work the engine trying to find enough torque to push through.  Same with very steep inclines while rolling the bigger wheels we like... needs an optional final drive ratio like many other manufacturers offer in their trucks, depending on how the customer intends to use the work vehicle. So the content creator here isn't saying, "The Ineos isn't as good as my altered rigs".  He's saying "The Ineos is supposed to be an off roader but requires too many very expensive changes to serve many off roader's environments". I paraphrased of course... but I did comment on his Youtube video and he wrote back saying he agrees.  Making the suspension changes he's talking about wouldn't just make it more offroad worthy for rock crawlers; it would increase the control and drive experience of those who use it as a daily driver on the pavement, too. 

All in all, this is a first iteration and they've done a great job in so many ways.  It's just many could-be customer's wishes to make such changes.  I've seen enough comments on various platforms to know I speak for many at least on the topic of suspension and tire size despite the fact that many will be perfectly happy as it is.... or at least we hope, when we get to drive on... after paying for it.
 

CheJ

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
@Ferrugenfish I think maybe my perspective from here in Australia is different to the US - I know you guys have a tendency towards rock crawler style vehicles, that exists in Australia to some extent but 35" tires are kind of where it ends for the majority of vehicles here. I find it amazing you can buy vehicles fitted with 35's from factory in the states! My benchmark here is the Landcruiser 76 (70 series wagon) which is similar in size and philosophy to the Grenadier, that vehicle does start to require modification once you start moving above 33". The 70 series is the most common in the outback here so that is my frame of reference. 
 

Shaky

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
I think the phrase “you can’t please all of the people” is something we can all agree with. One thing that is a massive compromise to me is, it isn’t long enough in the rear to get my gun slip in (with gun), and even when I put the back seat down I am left with a massive step. There is nothing that is going to fix that for me !

Whilst the author of this article would probably be not interested in my woes I am not bothered about having a suspension or tyres on my vehicle that allow me to drive over obstacles the size of a small car….horses for courses. I know I said that they must need some different mechanics in the outback and that was said tongue in cheek. In the UK my nearest IG dealer is 15 mins up the road from me and is said to be a good one as well. I have another one 40 mins away in the other direction, again something not a concern to me, but I accept Australia is a big place and as said you can’t really expect an IG dealer to pop up in the middle of the outback just in case one happens to break down. I am confident there are plenty of good mechanics and due to the area they are experts in 4x4 vehicles as well. Ineos have already stated they are going to release specs and manuals etc. 

I don’t remember it being mentioned here but the engine choice has come into some criticism, what I would point out is that there are plenty of Landrover specialists who are very good and they fit the same BMW Diesel engine as an upgrade and there are plenty of LR owners who want this conversion. They all seem to think it’s good enough. 

Ineos in my mind have designed a vehicle that they want to be reliable, sturdy, comfortable and as it comes off the production line will be suitable for the vast majority of people for their lifestyle, needs and capable of towing a fair amount, over a varied type of terrain without actually being too specialist. I for one will almost certainly be able to drive that vehicle without ever having to upgrade any of it. The gun slip situation I will have to figure out. (Without releasing a video explaining why the IG is not the perfect off roader).
 

grenadierboy

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
I agree with many of the comments made by our group on the video by Stefen. He also makes some good points based on his extensive experience.
He is an expert on 4WDriving, especially at the more extreme end of the spectrum and it is indeed the 4WD market is a very wide spectrum that the Grenadier is trying to cover and that is probably what Stefen has missed.

Regarding the massively oversized left footrest for RHD drivers - this is a very bad problem that if not corrected will cause years of seating position problems for RHD drivers and one that can not be corrected by owners once purchased.

I simply can't believe that, after hundreds of thousands of testing KM's in RHD versions, this problem has not be identified and will be addressed in PTO2 or PTO3 versions.
 

IG Pop

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Isn’t the foot-space identical between the driver’s seat and shotgun?
If I recall correctly also the LHD had such a ‘footrest’.
 

emax

Prolific Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
It's not a footrest, but a hump necessary for the exhaust tube underneath. It's only on the RHD.
 
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