Trialmaster delete

[stickshifter]

[QUOTE username=NoGaBiker userid=8980684 postid=1332845924]

Perhaps you mentioned it earlier and I missed it but I’m curious why you aren’t standing in line at Land Rover of Denver (or wherever the nearest JLR dealer is to you) waiting for a L663 Defender P400? 400hp/400tq with the ZF8 makes for a plenty fast truck for me even in the mountains, and my other cars over the past 18 years have been Porsche Turbos and GT cars so I’m not a stranger to acceleration.

I too wonder why BMW’s turbo 3.0 I-6 makes 120hp less than Jaguar’s, as well as considerably less torque (350 vs 400, iirc). Whether I will overlook that and keep the IG and sell my P400 when my number comes up or not remains to be seen once the IG gets to the US. But I’m still puzzled about the discrepancy in output.[/QUOTE]

Hi NoGaBiker,

I have absolutely no interest in the new Defender - way too much tech. I am in the market for solid front axle, body on frame, manual transfer case, and driver-controlled differential locks; but I'm hoping to use the same vehicle as a daily driver in the mountains of Colorado. So I don't want a 'tractor' like a 1975 Landcruiser. I've owned one of those, and other similar vehicles, and I've tried pairing them with a second car for commuting. Without getting into the details, I've opted to move away from that approach. The Grenadier is - by far - the closest thing to a match. The only tech I really want are heated seats and a heated steering wheel (neither of these interfere with the actual driving experience, and if either fail, the vehicle still drives). I'd also prefer a manual transmission, but that has become too small a market, and automatic transmissions have finally become really good. In particular, the ZF transmission is the first auto I have enjoyed driving.

I really don't think its too much to expect more than 281 HP and 332 lb-ft of torque from the B58. The same size engine from Ford in the Bronco Raptor (turbo-charged 3.0) is making over 400 HP and something like 450 lb-ft of torque; the new turbo-charged 3.0 from Stellantis makes similar power numbers. I'll repeat for the tenth time, I'm not expecting THOSE numbers from the B58 - not if its tuned for longevity. I did, however, expect to see the standard output from the B58  - something in the order of 325 HP and 365 lb-ft of torque. After all, the Grenadier weighs nearly 6,000 pounds. To provide longevity, Ineos could upgrade engine internals - as opposed to reducing power output. Lastly, the standard output engine could then be paired with the 8HP70 (or 8HP76). Power and durability.

 

[NoGaBiker]

[QUOTE username=stickshifter userid=8617054 postid=1332848055]

Hi NoGaBiker,

I have absolutely no interest in the new Defender - way too much tech. I am in the market for solid front axle, body on frame, manual transfer case, and driver-controlled differential locks; but I'm hoping to use the same vehicle as a daily driver in the mountains of Colorado. So I don't want a 'tractor' like a 1975 Landcruiser. I've owned one of those, and other similar vehicles, and I've tried pairing them with a second car for commuting. Without getting into the details, I've opted to move away from that approach. The Grenadier is - by far - the closest thing to a match. The only tech I really want are heated seats and a heated steering wheel (neither of these interfere with the actual driving experience, and if either fail, the vehicle still drives). I'd also prefer a manual transmission, but that has become too small a market, and automatic transmissions have finally become really good. In particular, the ZF transmission is the first auto I have enjoyed driving.

I really don't think its too much to expect more than 281 HP and 332 lb-ft of torque from the B58. The same size engine from Ford in the Bronco Raptor (turbo-charged 3.0) is making over 400 HP and something like 450 lb-ft of torque; the new turbo-charged 3.0 from Stellantis makes similar power numbers. I'll repeat for the tenth time, I'm not expecting THOSE numbers from the B58 - not if its tuned for longevity. I did, however, expect to see the standard output from the B58  - something in the order of 325 HP and 365 lb-ft of torque. After all, the Grenadier weighs nearly 6,000 pounds. To provide longevity, Ineos could upgrade engine internals - as opposed to reducing power output. Lastly, the standard output engine could then be paired with the 8HP70 (or 8HP76). Power and durability.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. So if you don’t want what 70-80k gets you in a Defender, i.e. tech and NVH refinement (you can’t have the latter with stick axles), why pay 70-80k? And you do want what comes standard on JKs and JLs — stick axles, much lighter than Defender or IG, as little tech as can be had in a modern vehicle it seems, manual gearbox, easy mod ability. I hate to point out the obvious but there’s your truck. Late-model JKU (if you want the least tech possible) or JLU (if you want new). The difference will likely be how much “better” you find the street manners of the JLU to be.

My 2014 manual JK 2-door started life as a Willys but I modded it significantly with 4:1 t-case, 4.56 gears, 35s on the road and 37s on the trail, blah blah blah. My problem, and the reason I didn’t keep it forever, is I live in Atlanta. It’s nearly 2000 miles to get to decent off-roading in CO/UT/NV/AZ/CA. I would drive out  with a trailer full of gear and 5 37” tires. It was a miserable 2.5 days each way to Moab. Finally, last year I decided to trade rock-climbing ability for “luxury”, ?, by which I meant an enjoyable road-trip truck. I toyed with getting a new JLU but decided if I was going to go for road manners I needed IRS/IFS, so I ordered a Defender.

Now I have ordered (as of February) an IG. The Defender tech is amazing (I actually took an all-day LR course at their Asheville center just to learn how to use all that wizardry), but like you I worry a bit about longevity and failure at times that could be very difficult to extract the truck. And to be honest, I don’t care if the amazing Terrain modes are great at not getting stuck — I like doing it myself.

So my hope is that the IG manages to give me more road refinement than a Rubicon or Bronco, decent reliability, sufficient power (if it feels like a Defender P300 I suppose that would be fine, even though I’ll miss the P400 power on-road), and then leaves me the hell alone to let me drive the thing. I want to open my damn door and look behind me while moving — the Defender lays a turd if you open that door while in Drive. I’ll put up with stuff like that in the Defender if the IG turns out to just be another Rubicon in terms of road refinement. But I’m hoping that it’s the perfect blend for my use case. Fingers crossed.

 

 

[stickshifter]

[QUOTE username=NoGaBiker userid=8980684 postid=1332848471]

Fair enough. So if you don’t want what 70-80k gets you in a Defender, i.e. tech and NVH refinement (you can’t have the latter with stick axles), why pay 70-80k? And you do want what comes standard on JKs and JLs — stick axles, much lighter than Defender or IG, as little tech as can be had in a modern vehicle it seems, manual gearbox, easy mod ability. I hate to point out the obvious but there’s your truck. Late-model JKU (if you want the least tech possible) or JLU (if you want new). The difference will likely be how much “better” you find the street manners of the JLU to be.

My 2014 manual JK 2-door started life as a Willys but I modded it significantly with 4:1 t-case, 4.56 gears, 35s on the road and 37s on the trail, blah blah blah. My problem, and the reason I didn’t keep it forever, is I live in Atlanta. It’s nearly 2000 miles to get to decent off-roading in CO/UT/NV/AZ/CA. I would drive out  with a trailer full of gear and 5 37” tires. It was a miserable 2.5 days each way to Moab. Finally, last year I decided to trade rock-climbing ability for “luxury”, ?, by which I meant an enjoyable road-trip truck. I toyed with getting a new JLU but decided if I was going to go for road manners I needed IRS/IFS, so I ordered a Defender.

Now I have ordered (as of February) an IG. The Defender tech is amazing (I actually took an all-day LR course at their Asheville center just to learn how to use all that wizardry), but like you I worry a bit about longevity and failure at times that could be very difficult to extract the truck. And to be honest, I don’t care if the amazing Terrain modes are great at not getting stuck — I like doing it myself.

So my hope is that the IG manages to give me more road refinement than a Rubicon or Bronco, decent reliability, sufficient power (if it feels like a Defender P300 I suppose that would be fine, even though I’ll miss the P400 power on-road), and then leaves me the hell alone to let me drive the thing. I want to open my damn door and look behind me while moving — the Defender lays a turd if you open that door while in Drive. I’ll put up with stuff like that in the Defender if the IG turns out to just be another Rubicon in terms of road refinement. But I’m hoping that it’s the perfect blend for my use case. Fingers crossed.

 [/QUOTE]

You have answered your question to me, within your own post when you wrote: "So my hope is that the IG manages to give me more road refinement than a Rubicon or Bronco, decent reliability, sufficient power". Those are my reasons - in a nutshell.

I also agree 100% with what you wrote here about the new Defender: "And to be honest, I don’t care if the amazing Terrain modes are great at not getting stuck — I like doing it myself."

I've been in the market for a long time, and I do my homework - you aren't going to come up with an idea I haven't already considered - but thanks for trying!

Like you, I've owned Jeeps. I want something with a fixed roof, better power (but not the Ecodiesel), a little better road manners, better reliability, and that I can drive stock from the factory. I also want something a little larger than a Wrangler or Grenadier - so I'm hoping that Ineos produces the long-wheelbase station wagon. I am over upgrading various parts of a Jeep to achieve reliability (been there - and it was fun - but I'm done with that). I've also been waiting for 3-4 years for Jeep to put the 3.0 turbo-charged I6 Hurricane in the Wrangler or Gladiator - which would resolve the power-issue (but not the fixed roof, or reliability issues). For some reason, Jeep shelved the I6 Hurricane for years; it is now finally making its way into some Jeep vehicles, but not yet the Wrangler or Gladiator. On 35-inch tires, even re-geared to 4.56 in my manual transmission JKU, the 3.6 was just not torquey enough - especially at low rpms. Being at elevation really takes it out of naturally aspirated V6 engines.

If Jeep had actually put "The Africa" into production, with the 3.0 I6 Hurricane, I would have bought it. It would have checked all my boxes - except Jeep reliability: fixed roof, longer wheelbase than the Wrangler, excellent power, 35-inch tires. Here is The Africa concept vehicle from 2015:

 

[DaveB]

I know there are a lot of people who enjoy modifying and adding to a 4WD and I am happy for you. 
Also lots of people are in the position where they can have a daily driver and a dedicated off road vehicle, I am happy for you also. 

I am not in either of those positions.

I need a daily driver and a work vehicle that meats acceptable appearance and company standards along with a weekend and holiday fun machine.
I will do a small amount of modification such as bars and lights to enhance the vehicle.
But you shouldn't have to do major modifications just to get a a livable result for acceptable off road capability and as a daily driver. 

I tested Rubicon and Wrangler and I couldn't look forward to getting in them and going for a 5 hour drive on typical Australian roads or even highways/motorways.
They were so unrefined, uncomfortable, noisy and cheap interior that I couldn't see them lasting 5 years, let alone 15-20.

The new defender and range rover were fantastic but so much technology and fancy interior that I would never want to take them into rural towns of Australia let alone the outback. Definitely not on a beach or down a fire trail. Once again the prospect of letting them get out of warranty is terrifying.

The same for the Mercedes and BMW options that I tested. 

Toyotas are of course fantastic, if you can get them, but so so boring. I think they are intentionally designed that way. 

The Ford Bronco looked interesting but I don't like that self destruct mode they have built into the engines. I also think they would not be a suitable daily driver for me and my needs.

So the Grenadier seems to tick most of my boxes..........but then again I haven't driven one or been driven in one yet. 



 

 

[stickshifter]

[QUOTE username=DaveB userid=8923052 postid=1332849749]I know there are a lot of people who enjoy modifying and adding to a 4WD and I am happy for you. 
Also lots of people are in the position where they can have a daily driver and a dedicated off road vehicle, I am happy for you also. 

I am not in either of those positions.

I need a daily driver and a work vehicle that meats acceptable appearance and company standards along with a weekend and holiday fun machine.
I will do a small amount of modification such as bars and lights to enhance the vehicle.
But you shouldn't have to do major modifications just to get a a livable result for acceptable off road capability and as a daily driver. 

I tested Rubicon and Wrangler and I couldn't look forward to getting in them and going for a 5 hour drive on typical Australian roads or even highways/motorways.
They were so unrefined, uncomfortable, noisy and cheap interior that I couldn't see them lasting 5 years, let alone 15-20.

The new defender and range rover were fantastic but so much technology and fancy interior that I would never want to take them into rural towns of Australia let alone the outback. Definitely not on a beach or down a fire trail. Once again the prospect of letting them get out of warranty is terrifying.

The same for the Mercedes and BMW options that I tested. 

Toyotas are of course fantastic, if you can get them, but so so boring. I think they are intentionally designed that way. 

The Ford Bronco looked interesting but I don't like that self destruct mode they have built into the engines. I also think they would not be a suitable daily driver for me and my needs.

So the Grenadier seems to tick most of my boxes..........but then again I haven't driven one or been driven in one yet. 


 [/QUOTE]

I agree with all you have written - which is why I'm also waiting on the Grenadier. Yes, there are a few things about it I wish I could change, but it still looks like the closest thing to my "dream car".

 

[Jeremy996]

I'm a little surprised at people thinking the Grenadier will be underpowered; I've spent too many years plodding around the country with 111bhp and 1915kg, so the Grenadier with more than double the power and a bit more weight seems like it will be a rocketship to me!

Still, I don't do dune-bashing and the usual hazard around here is mud, so lots of power just means you throw it further.

 

[Mussels]

I think Ineos can only sell 6,000 vehicles a year into the Uk, 1,700 can be cars and 4,300 ‘vans’.  Therefore the Belstaff versions are the cars and they must need to keep 1,700 earmarked for these.  The basic Station Wagon now has the seats a bit forward and more upright as part of it’s N1 commercial classification.  Business users will gain some tax benefits from these but stories of reclaiming all the VAT only applies if the vehicle is only 100% used for business and kept on the premises overnight.  For most, only a proportion of the VAT is reclaimable.

 

[WhiskyDisco]

[QUOTE username=G-Man userid=8989993 postid=1332667715]I think there's probably some confusion over nomenclature here, as there is actually no 'commercial' version offered for sale on the Ineos website, Only 'Utility' (2 seat), 'Station Wagon' (5-seat) and Belstaff (5-seat with more 2nd row leg room and extra bling). So the reduction in VED only applies to the 2-seat Utility. I believe the 2-seat Utility model is classified as a commercial vehicle because it is capable of carrying significantly more weight than the total mass of the passengers.[/QUOTE]

The Station Wagon (5 seater) is classed as a commercial vehicle.  When you spec it up, the final price details VAT and OTR costs - which are circa £900 vs £2400 in year one.

 

[G-Man]

[QUOTE username=WhiskyDisco userid=9012160 postid=1332907663]

The Station Wagon (5 seater) is classed as a commercial vehicle.  When you spec it up, the final price details VAT and OTR costs - which are circa £900 vs £2400 in year one.[/QUOTE]

Yeah it wasn't clear at the time of original post but you're right, there's a £1650 saving (at least in the UK) on the 5-seater Station Wagon provided your rear passengers can live with a London Bus seating position. The question is just what the rear bench in the N1 SW will look like, as all of the prototypes in circulation appear to have the 'Belstaff' seating configuration.