Portal Axles

[bemax]

Might be talking about the Kübelwagen. Those had portal axles if I’m not mistaken.

Ok I didn’t know that the „Thing“ as it is called in the US had portal axles. I should have known better as I tried to buy one from the Bundeswehr 25 years ago. RAL 3000 red from the fire department. 10640 km and like new! It has been sold for 4350 German Mark. I only had 2800…

 

[DaveB]

Could you be so nice and search a picture of the VW Kombi wagon? As far as I know in Germany there is no vehicle of VW called „Kombi wagon“ so I guess it is a specific name for some region but probably for a car we know here under a different name.

 

[bemax]

View attachment 7794994

Ah, the Bulli

 

[DaveB]

Portal Axles Explained - CLUB 4X4

Everything you ever wanted to know… A few weeks ago, we were lucky enough to get schooled on Portal Axles while in Melbourne in the most unexpected circumstances. We were in Melbourne for the Australian ... Read More

www.club4x4.com.au

 

[emax]

View attachment 7794994

These are called "VW-Bus" or "Bulli". The models you show are "T1" versions. I had one from 1979-1981.

The T1 has never had portal axles afaik, I have at least never heard of one. And even the later models T2 .... T6 (todays name) have or had them extremely rarely - if at all. The only model I know is the "Seikel T5", but that was an aftermarket thing, not a Volkswagen solution.

 

[bemax]

These are called "VW-Bus" or "Bulli". The models you show are "T1" versions. I had one from 1979-1981.

The T1 has never had portal axles afaik, I have at least never heard of one. And even the later models T2 .... T6 (todays name) have or had them extremely rarely - if at all. The only model I know is the "Seikel T5", but that was an aftermarket thing, not a Volkswagen solution.

I haven’t heard anything like that before neither. Unfortunately it seems to be true anyway. I only started a very short search on google and found immediately some hints regarding the portal axle in the T1

 

[internal]

These are called "VW-Bus" or "Bulli". The models you show are "T1" versions. I had one from 1979-1981.

The T1 has never had portal axles afaik, I have at least never heard of one. And even the later models T2 .... T6 (todays name) have or had them extremely rarely - if at all. The only model I know is the "Seikel T5", but that was an aftermarket thing, not a Volkswagen solution.

I also only know the Seikel solution for the T5. I had quite a lot of Seikel installed on one of my T5, but the portal axles were then too extreme for the family van (and too expensive and not really practical).
I have never seen such a conversion in the field.

https://www.seikel.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/T5_Extreme_01.jpg

 

[emax]

I haven’t heard anything like that before neither. Unfortunately it seems to be true anyway. I only started a very short search on google and found immediately some hints regarding the portal axle in the T1

That must be something exotic outside of the normal production. But perhaps you have a few links, it sounds interesting.

 

[bemax]

That must be something exotic outside of the normal production. But perhaps you have a few links, it sounds interesting.

At your service


1.
Gerade bei #eBayKleinanzeigen gefunden. Wie findest du das?

VW T1 Pendelachse,Portalachse Vorgelege aus Werkstattauflösung

VW T1 Pendelachse, Portalachse mit Vorgelege aus Werkstattauflösung. Weitere Informationen finden...,VW T1 Pendelachse,Portalachse Vorgelege aus Werkstattauflösung in Viersen - Viersen

www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de

2.
From Wikipedia:
“The rear axle with the wheel-sided countershafts corresponds to that of the VW Type 82 "Kübelwagen".”

3.
From the site https://dewiki.de/Lexikon/Portalachse:

“The first generation of the VW Transporter produced from 1950 to 1967 also had a portal axle with reduction gears, which was also used for other types. They provided a somewhat higher ground clearance and the reduction that was advantageous with the weak engine of the early Transporters, so that a Beetle gearbox - standard except for the differential basket with ring gear installed the other way around - could be used.[1]”

 

[emax]

Thanks @bemax , interesting stuff.

That's an extremely rare feature - just like the entire T1 series from before 1960. Aparently, with the ratio of the portal gears, they made a bit additional torque at the wheels. No surprise with only 25 PS. Mine T1 had 34 PS and was a 1962 model, and as it seems, the portals were build only until 1960.

The gears on the portal axle are not hypoid gears, so it was probably a noisy affair.

Learned something. Thanks!

 

[Stu_Barnes]

That is one of the reservations I would have with portals. Although I have to admit I've never heard a set in person. But the noise from straight cut gears at speed isn't the most pleasant, you can mitigate it a little with micro finishing etc. I am of course making the huge assumption that modern portals are still straight cut....

Another thing from those 'in the know' is there any issue with overheating? The gear oil will take an absolute beating....

I see there is a Ukrainian company making portals for the new Bronco so its not beyond the realm of possibility for the Grenadier to have some developed by a third party called Werewolf. With a cost of

Spoiler: guess the price

$16K

my pockets aren't that deep.

Article in motortrend

 

[Hicarus]

The split screen version of the VW van (aka Transporter &/or Kombi) definitely had reduction hubs on the rear axle, ratio unknown but less than 1:1.
I know, I had one. Also a mate who installed a complete Beetle gearbox/axle arrangement in his - and disappeared through the back of his shed....
Beetles didn't have.....
And, god, was that T1 noisy, some of it from the hubs. However in 20k miles they never broke!

 

[Cheshire cat]

I recall it being mentioned early on that they were looking at portal axles but were focused on getting the base vehicle out first. Sorry I donât have a reference for that.

Was mentioned on one of the 12 presentation videos (Probably the suspension one) and stating that cost prevented adding Portal axles.

 

[stickshifter]

That is one of the reservations I would have with portals. Although I have to admit I've never heard a set in person. But the noise from straight cut gears at speed isn't the most pleasant, you can mitigate it a little with micro finishing etc. I am of course making the huge assumption that modern portals are still straight cut....

Another thing from those 'in the know' is there any issue with overheating? The gear oil will take an absolute beating....

I see there is a Ukrainian company making portals for the new Bronco so its not beyond the realm of possibility for the Grenadier to have some developed by a third party called Werewolf. With a cost of

Spoiler: guess the price

$16K

my pockets aren't that deep.

Article in motortrend

There is a technical solution for the noise from portal axles: the Bose 12-speaker sound system

 

[bemax]

There is a technical solution for the noise from portal axles: the Bose 12-speaker sound system

To avoid the basic conversation my Defender tries to bring up every time I drive faster than 115 km/h I prefer noise cancelling headsets (eg Bose Quiet comfort) I am sure they work well with portal axles!

Bose QuietComfort Earbuds II – generalüberholt | Bose

Die generalüberholten QuietComfort Earbuds II von Bose passen das Noise-Cancelling und den Klang an Ihre Ohren an und bieten einen sicheren und komfortablen Sitz. Kaufen Sie jetzt die kabellosen Bluetooth-Kopfhörer von Bose.

www.bose.de

 

[DCPU]

I think the axles are fairly popular with G wagons, since I think those would look pretty silly with big rubber on them.

A recall this week on some of the G Wagens:

 

[Steveo]

Anyone know whether the G-Wagon top speed was restricted b/c of portals?

 

[globalgregors]

Anyone know whether the G-Wagon top speed was restricted b/c of portals?

I understand that as a rule of thumb portal axles rarely see operating speeds >100kmh due to lubrication issues (at high revolutions) when compared to conventional axles.
This factoid goes back some years to an earlier expedition, perhaps our engineering-minded forum members will have a firmer answer/explanation.

 

[DCPU]

Would that be more down to the fact that historically the portal axles used were from Unimogs, Volvos, etc where the whole axle set has been used and they are just "low speed" axles?

 

[globalgregors]

Would that be more down to the fact that historically the portal axles used were from Unimogs, Volvos, etc where the whole axle set has been used and they are just "low speed" axles?

That’s a perceptive question. This was in the context of a bespoke system however it may well have been a function of engineering compromises analogous to those manufacturers.
In short I don’t know. I agree with your implication that a solution could presumably be engineered to perform at high revs/shed accumulated heat etc, as that problem has clearly been solved in other geared systems.