On the Grenadier Fence in Brisbane

[DaveB]

My dealer told me last week, that January 2025 was the best month ever, for that dealership.

I was in the Perth dealer last month and he said they were going fantastic.
Brisbane dealer said earlier this year they were delivering 30 a month.

 

[DenisM]

I was in the Perth dealer last month and he said they were going fantastic.
Brisbane dealer said earlier this year they were delivering 30 a month.

Not surprised they needed to find expanded premises for their Service Dept!! The new premises at Banyo are literally across the street from "The Repair Hub", a reputable and professional automotive body repair business...

 

[TheDocAUS]

I was in the Perth dealer last month and he said they were going fantastic.
Brisbane dealer said earlier this year they were delivering 30 a month.

I suspect the better dealers are doing better, for obvious reasons.

 

[DaveB]

I have noticed that there has been a lot of posts recently on Ineos Grenadier Facebook pages, warning not to buy a Grenadier, as there are lots for sale due to unhappy customers.
Often when you look at the profile pages of these posters and commentor's, they don't have a single picture, or post, about their Grenadier.
I have been looking at how many are listed for sale in Australia on the main sales sites, and find many are repeats on multiple sites, but carsales.com.au seem to have the most.
So

• 75 in total listed for sale.
• 29 New for order online or dealer stock
• 46 Used or demo 16 Demo and 30 listed as used
  • I have to question how "used" a vehicle with 14 kms on it really is.
• There are only 10 vehicles listed with over 10,000 kms on them.
  • To me these are genuine used vehicles for sale, however if you go to over 5,000 kms you get 22 vehicles
  • There are 6 that have done more than 20,000 kms and only 1 that has done over 40,000 kms. (47,000 kms)
• Of the 30 Used 7 are 2024 models and only 2 have more than 50 kms on them.

Considering there were 1,100 sold and delivered by February 2024 I would guess there have now been over 2,000 sold.
I have been told that several wagons were traded on the Quartermaster hence dealer used vehicles.

So do we consider this to be "a lot" of vehicles for sale??

 

[Nocrays]

Nice summary Dave.

I don’t think that there are a “lot” of Grenadiers for sale.

I think there are 2 camps.

1. Those who knew what to expect. Ex Defender owners and keen off road enthusiasts.

2. Those who have only known a 4x4 (SUV) with IFS and decent around town manners.

You’ll find camp 1 are happy as Larry (as I am), whereas camp 2 are struggling withe the steering and turning circle doing the school run.

It’s even come to the point where my 2001 Defender goes on the market next week.

 

[DaveB]

Nice summary Dave.

I don’t think that there are a “lot” of Grenadiers for sale.

I think there are 2 camps.

1. Those who knew what to expect. Ex Defender owners and keen off road enthusiasts.

2. Those who have only known a 4x4 (SUV) with IFS and decent around town manners.

You’ll find camp 1 are happy as Larry (as I am), whereas camp 2 are struggling withe the steering and turning circle doing the school run.

It’s even come to the point where my 2001 Defender goes on the market next week.

Yes, each to their own......but when someone starts complaining about the quality of the subwoofer or the font on the Grenadier logo my eyes start to glaze over.

 

[RYAustralia]

l had a feeling that in Australia or the USA those distances l quoted may be seen as negligible!

I remember touring California and regularly driving 400 miles between destinations.
Not seeing another vehicle for an hour. It was amazing, the sense of space.

Indeed. A short drive for me in North Queensland Australia is anything under 5 hours. A reasonable drive is 10-12 hours. A medium drive would be 4 or 5 days. A long drive would be 7+ days. Don’t know about others but that’s how I do the mental maths of driving.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Yes, each to their own......but when someone starts complaining about the quality of the subwoofer or the font on the Grenadier logo my eyes start to glaze over.

It’s good to know some of you can whine like an American and are not all ranchers or deep sea demolitions experts.

 

[DaveB]

It’s good to know some of you can whine like an American and are not all ranchers or deep sea demolitions experts.

I found out about 15 years ago that my children and friends thought I was an assassin if that counts.
This movie came out at the time and I used to train in karate, abseiled, scuba dived, owned handguns, worked from home, flew around the world and Australia very often and had no obvious means of making money.
I worked from home for myself at the time.
So not a cattle rancher or deep seas demolitions expert but.....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzmSkmFFbjA

 

[beefs]

...I have to question how "used" a vehicle with 14 kms on it really is....
View attachment 7897475View attachment 7897476View attachment 7897477View attachment 7897478View attachment 7897479View attachment 7897480

I have wondered if these are actually Dealer cars and due to dealership structure or Ineos commercial agreements they are only allowed to offer them at a "discounted" rate if they advertise them as second hand?

Also that Mushroom vehicle listed at $77,800 is an odd one. He initially advertised it at around $72k, I messaged him and didn't get a good vibe. He then raised the price a couple of times before lowering it to $77,800 where it has sat for a little while now. Very odd.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I found out about 15 years ago that my children and friends thought I was an assassin if that counts.
This movie came out at the time and I used to train in karate, abseiled, scuba dived, owned handguns, worked from home, flew around the world and Australia very often and had no obvious means of making money.
I worked from home for myself at the time.
So not a cattle rancher or deep seas demolitions expert but.....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzmSkmFFbjA

OK - so imagine THAT, but now with frequent letters to the editor of the local paper, negative Google Maps and Yelp reviews, and frequent complaints to city council. You’ve really got to work at it to nail the American thing.

View: https://youtu.be/szGmZAPsILQ?si=jBGw1-W7gCJgdnOO

 

[RYAustralia]

I found out about 15 years ago that my children and friends thought I was an assassin if that counts.
This movie came out at the time and I used to train in karate, abseiled, scuba dived, owned handguns, worked from home, flew around the world and Australia very often and had no obvious means of making money.
I worked from home for myself at the time.
So not a cattle rancher or deep seas demolitions expert but.....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzmSkmFFbjA

OK - so imagine THAT, but now with frequent letters to the editor of the local paper, negative Google Maps and Yelp reviews, and frequent complaints to city council. You’ve really got to work at it to nail the American thing.

View: https://youtu.be/szGmZAPsILQ?si=jBGw1-W7gCJgdnOO

Haha. I’m a GenX and typical of my generation am naturally very private, and aggressively self sufficient. I also travel a lot and have taken frequent career breaks to travel and occasionally to live overseas. My kids for exactly the same reasons as you thought I was some sort of spy / criminal mastermind / secret mission specialist etc for years. Sadly they eventually realised I was simply a genX with a travel bug. Was much cooler when they thought I was a super spy

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Haha. I’m a GenX and typical of my generation am naturally very private, and aggressively self sufficient. I also travel a lot and have taken frequent career breaks to travel and occasionally to live overseas. My kids for exactly the same reasons as you thought I was some sort of spy / criminal mastermind / secret mission specialist etc for years. Sadly they eventually realised I was simply a genX with a travel bug. Was much cooler when they thought I was a super spy

My kids thought the same - just because of all the international stuff and last minute travel - but mostly because I was too lazy to explain my job to them.

 

[DesertGecko]

• 46 Used or demo 16 Demo and 30 listed as used
  • I have to question how "used" a vehicle with 14 kms on it really is.

Big Snip. I can't add to most of your post, but I can say that dealers putting cars on as "Demos" is an age old way of discounting. Rather than say "here is this new car and we've cut the price by XXXX" - saying "Here is a Demo with a low price of xxx" is considered more acceptable way of discounting to everyone generally.

It's a bit of a problem for manufacturers.. if they cut the retail prices on their vehicles it generally really annoys people who have just bought them. It's also not great for second hand values which also doesn't help the situation. Traditionally manufacturers needing to drop prices will generally look for all sorts of ways of doing it without actually reducing the prices. Including more options.. free onroads, encouraging dealers to have stocks of discounted "Demos" Etc.

Probably the most painful option for ineos is to do what manufacturers have done in the past. Reduce the RRP and refund those owners who actually paid the old RRP. Ouch but it's sometimes the best and only way out without totally enraging existing owners and enabling the brand to continue to sell cars. Many of the Grenadiers out there were bought at launch prices so they are in the clear. It's really only the people who actually paid full RRP. Its very very unclear to people on the outside how many people there are like this. IMHO it's what Ineos needs to do. Charging more for less is really very tricky, especially when other people are charging less for less. The original defender was very much an example of charging less for less.

Having said all this I've no idea how Ineos have landed in this pricing mess and what the solution is. Nor do I understand why they promised competitive prices before release. Unfortunately - as it stands they aren't competitive in this market as anything more than a niche player.

The Ford Territory has claimed its first victory. Faced with disappointing sales, Holden has slashed the price of its arch rival off-road wagon, the Adventra, by $4000 and will refund that amount to those who have bought the car already -- a move which could cost Holden more than $5 million.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/holdens-5m-adventra-handout-20100824-13l1b/]

I just clicked on my local dealer page.. oh look another sale.. which seems to be a rolling permanent arrangement. Which as far as I can tell is at least a 15k discount.

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[MattA]

The other reason dealers don’t like to drop prices is because the consumer sees the market and then wonders why
Why are they selling them cheaper? Mmm
Mustn’t be selling many mmmm
Why?
What’s wrong with them if they aren’t moving?
Maybe , just maybe I shouldn’t buy one just yet…
And the problem of low sales just gets bigger and bigger

Add to that who would be silly enough to believe what a car salesman said, now that’s some funny shit right there…

 

[DesertGecko]

I just checked my local Toyota and I can get a Landcruiser GXL wagon (auto) for 85K Driveaway. RRP. Or a base one for 80. I can also get a GXL prado driveaway for 85. IMHO ineos needs to be much closer to these prices to stand any chance of any volume.

 

[DaveB]

Big Snip. I can't add to most of your post, but I can say that dealers putting cars on as "Demos" is an age old way of discounting. Rather than say "here is this new car and we've cut the price by XXXX" - saying "Here is a Demo with a low price of xxx" is considered more acceptable way of discounting to everyone generally.

It's a bit of a problem for manufacturers.. if they cut the retail prices on their vehicles it generally really annoys people who have just bought them. It's also not great for second hand values which also doesn't help the situation. Traditionally manufacturers needing to drop prices will generally look for all sorts of ways of doing it without actually reducing the prices. Including more options.. free onroads, encouraging dealers to have stocks of discounted "Demos" Etc.

Probably the most painful option for ineos is to do what manufacturers have done in the past. Reduce the RRP and refund those owners who actually paid the old RRP. Ouch but it's sometimes the best and only way out without totally enraging existing owners and enabling the brand to continue to sell cars. Many of the Grenadiers out there were bought at launch prices so they are in the clear. It's really only the people who actually paid full RRP. Its very very unclear to people on the outside how many people there are like this. IMHO it's what Ineos needs to do. Charging more for less is really very tricky, especially when other people are charging less for less. The original defender was very much an example of charging less for less.

Having said all this I've no idea how Ineos have landed in this pricing mess and what the solution is. Nor do I understand why they promised competitive prices before release. Unfortunately - as it stands they aren't competitive in this market as anything more than a niche player.



https://www.drive.com.au/news/holdens-5m-adventra-handout-20100824-13l1b/]

I just clicked on my local dealer page.. oh look another sale.. which seems to be a rolling permanent arrangement. Which as far as I can tell is at least a 15k discount.

Ineos is a niche manufacturer and can't be anything else.
I would be surprised if they tried to sell more than 2,000 a year in Australia.
I think lots of things they promised or tried to do in the early stages were rich people dreaming over overpriced pints of beer in a flash pub.
Initially they didn't want traction control, ABS or airbags.
Sir Jim says in one interview he was very disappointed when they told him these were compulsory.
He also didn't want computers and then discovered no modern engine can run without them.

I think there are a lot of "alternatives" to the Grenadier and Quartermaster but not a lot of direct equivalents.
I don't think anyone would seriously compare one to the modern Defender or Toyota 300 or Prado.
They may all be on the comparison list, and I think many buyers would cross the Ineos off early, but I doubt many of us owners would seriously compare them.
Doesn't mean one is better or worse than the other, just different use cases, needs or desires.

The Toyota 70 series on the other hand is more of a direct competitor.
You would need to throw $20,000 - 50,000 at it though to bring it up to the Grenadier spec.

Some compare them to a Jeep Wrangler or Gladiator but definitely not in Australia.
I don't think either of them are taken seriously for Australian use.
North American use they are great but not Australian.

The standard dual cab ute market in Australia is not going to be attractive to Ineos for the Quartermaster and never was a target.
Ford Ranger is built in Thailand and some talk of it moving to China where many of its competitors are built.
Nothing wrong with that but no chance a European manufactured vehicle can compete, particularly one with the Quartermaster specifications.

 

[DaveB]

The other reason dealers don’t like to drop prices is because the consumer sees the market and then wonders why
Why are they selling them cheaper? Mmm
Mustn’t be selling many mmmm
Why?
What’s wrong with them if they aren’t moving?
Maybe , just maybe I shouldn’t buy one just yet…
And the problem of low sales just gets bigger and bigger

Add to that who would be silly enough to believe what a car salesman said, now that’s some funny shit right there…

Head into Ignition and try to buy one of those cheap ones.
They sold them yesterday or last week.
I was in there 2 weeks ago.

They had a Quartermaster with a Norweld tray in the showroom for $99,000 driveaway.
Pretty sure it was fairly well specced.

Unfortunately the sales guy said it wasn't actually that vehicle or that tray or that spec.
They also had a Station wagon in Trailmaster spec. on display.
I pointed out that they are Trialmasters not Trailmasters. I bet the sign hasn't changed.

They also told me earlier in the year they were delivering 30 a month. Jordan was great to deal with in there but he has now gone to their service centre at Banyo.

 

[bakepl]

Ineos is a niche manufacturer and can't be anything else.
I would be surprised if they tried to sell more than 2,000 a year in Australia.
I think lots of things they promised or tried to do in the early stages were rich people dreaming over overpriced pints of beer in a flash pub.
Initially they didn't want traction control, ABS or airbags.
Sir Jim says in one interview he was very disappointed when they told him these were compulsory.
He also didn't want computers and then discovered no modern engine can run without them.

I think there are a lot of "alternatives" to the Grenadier and Quartermaster but not a lot of direct equivalents.
I don't think anyone would seriously compare one to the modern Defender or Toyota 300 or Prado.
They may all be on the comparison list, and I think many buyers would cross the Ineos off early, but I doubt many of us owners would seriously compare them.
Doesn't mean one is better or worse than the other, just different use cases, needs or desires.

The Toyota 70 series on the other hand is more of a direct competitor.
You would need to throw $20,000 - 50,000 at it though to bring it up to the Grenadier spec.

Some compare them to a Jeep Wrangler or Gladiator but definitely not in Australia.
I don't think either of them are taken seriously for Australian use.
North American use they are great but not Australian.

The standard dual cab ute market in Australia is not going to be attractive to Ineos for the Quartermaster and never was a target.
Ford Ranger is built in Thailand and some talk of it moving to China where many of its competitors are built.
Nothing wrong with that but no chance a European manufactured vehicle can compete, particularly one with the Quartermaster specifications.

View attachment 7898091View attachment 7898092View attachment 7898096View attachment 7898093View attachment 7898094View attachment 7898095

100% but I don't really think any amount of $ will bring a 70 up to the same standard now. It's an old (but capable) design and a simple closing a door test between the two will speak volumes regarding quality of build. I'm a Toyo fan boy, had an 80 barn door, 100 sahara and all I ever wanted was a new modern 80 series. The Ineos is about as close as I can get and most certainly ticks all the boxes for my application. Its not perfect but close to. If you have bought an Ineos to look cool and do school runs then you have bought the wrong vehicle and no doubt will be on the market before too long. Looking forward to the release of the workshop manuals etc and then after market diagnostics which I suspect will enhance sales prospects - certainly make it a positive talking point for dealers when prospective buyers ask about servicing.

 

[DaveB]

100% but I don't really think any amount of $ will bring a 70 up to the same standard now. It's an old (but capable) design and a simple closing a door test between the two will speak volumes regarding quality of build. I'm a Toyo fan boy, had an 80 barn door, 100 sahara and all I ever wanted was a new modern 80 series. The Ineos is about as close as I can get and most certainly ticks all the boxes for my application. Its not perfect but close to. If you have bought an Ineos to look cool and do school runs then you have bought the wrong vehicle and no doubt will be on the market before too long. Looking forward to the release of the workshop manuals etc and then after market diagnostics which I suspect will enhance sales prospects - certainly make it a positive talking point for dealers when prospective buyers ask about servicing.

I am wondering if spending $20-30,000 on an 80 or 100 series would be a great option for people who don't want a Grenadier.
Now a Grenadier wagon on the Quartermaster wheelbase would be a great niche model also.
Or a short cab 2 seat/2 door Quartermaster with a long tray.
Maybe an extra cab version.