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Got invited to the Grenadier 2B prototype walkthrough in San Francisco!!

HouseMD

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Thanks for the write up. My wife and I go to see it next week in Seattle (10:00 group). That “you’re not far off” pricing comment makes it sound more like $80k plus. I was thinking in the $75k-80 range sounded right.
 

Paachi

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@Stu_Barnes Awesome sauce!! Thank you for the detailed write up. It addressed several of the questions I had. I will try and cover some of the other areas when I see it later this week.

Of all the things you noted, the one that disappoints me the most is the dealer sales model. I can already see dealers wanting $20K over MSRP for this. Single handedly, thats the deal breaker for me. I refuse to be price gouged by opportunistic car sales guys.

I am not surprised that the price is landing at $75-$80K. Its where the previous gen LC200 was, the current Defender is and the G-Wagen is far more expensive. I just hope it doesn't start at $80K and then ratchet up $110K once you add some of the desirable options (lockers, side mount L-tracks, etc.)

The electrical feedback is very good. House battery below the seat and pre-wired for aux needs. Perfect. I am also pleasantly surprised that it has mounting provisions for F & R winches

On the dimensions, is the 84" width including the mirrors or body only? If its body only then they will need triple marker lights F & R to comply with DOT regs.

Really like how the underbody is tucked in well (saw the South African 2B tour video in another thread here). The engineers have done their homework well.

Overall, this is shaping up to be a very desirable vehicle that ticks all the right boxes. Thank you for the meaty update.
 

Stu_Barnes

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With regards to the width, I went back and listened again and they state 84" wide, no reference to mirrors, but to the untrained eye it doesn't look wider than the Disco/LR4 mirror to mirror.
 

Paachi

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Hi Guys,

Just got back home from the 2B Prototype walk around. Had an awesome time. The team did a great job show casing the vehicle and tried to answer as candidly as they could, the many questions our group asked. Here are my takeaways (some might be duplicative to whats be already called out by Stu)

What they said:
- Only 6 cyl B58 BMW Petrol coming to the US. The diesel wont come to the US atleast in this engine generation because BMW rescinded from diesels back in 2019 and that means all EPA certifications are gone.
- Drivable prototypes and full pricing will be available by late 2022 for the NA region. Mid 2023 order fulfillment for North America customers; 9 months after ROW. This is mainly driven by EPA and DOT regulation testing. The Grenadier is undergoing an additional 150K miles & 50 week testing (on top of the planned 1.2 million global test) to give data to the EPA for certification. More info on the DOT compliance and US specificity down below
- Potential for the pick up variant to come to the US in 2024
- Like mentioned earlier by Stu, the configurator will expand significantly by spring 2022.
- Dealer franchise model because D2C rules vary by state and only electric vehicles like Tesla have that exemption right now. Cant control dealer price gouging but they hinted that they might strike a deal with dealers for early reservations to be at MSRP. However, too early to commit anything
- Select Bosch service centers will be identified and approved to provide additional service coverage
- Selling dealers will also be equipped to service the Grenadier
- Factory will allow individuals to service the Grenadier themselves and will honor the warranty as long as factory genuine parts or factory approved parts (I am guessing after market) are used and will honor the warranty
- Production capacity@Hambach ~45000 units/ year and 1/3rd for US. Right now 10 - 12K booking globally and 3K USA
- The US model is slightly bespoke i.e. It has a rear back up camera (under the spare tire), has side marker lights, etc. Thats one of the reasons they wont offer a European delivery
- Tentatively 5yr warranty
- Tank size and range not confirmed yet (but if the South African specs hold good for US as well then a ~24 gallon tank)
- Aux fuel tanks wont be provided from factory. However, they are in talks with some Australian after market suppliers for aux tanks
- Main battery will be under the hood and aux battery under the middle row seats. Two fuse boxes..one under the hood and one under the middle row seat for aux wiring.
- There are two choices for ac inverters 400W and 2000W. The inverters will also reside under the middle seat
- There will potentially be a factory option for a simple sleeping platform, where the platform in the cargo area will be level with the rear seats folded flat
- The raised air intake isnt sealed but it reduces dust intake significantly
- The display model had plastic bumpers and plastic armor. The production model will have steel bumpers F&R and 4mm thick steel under body armor
- The radiators on the wings of the front bumper are intercoolers. The steel front bumper will have full coverage protection for the intercoolers
- The chassis goes through 3 rounds of protection. 1. rust proof coating 2. power coating 3. wax coating on the interior to protect from rust on the inside. I think thats very thorough
- The all important pricing: Officially nothing said but it looks like the base will be ~$70K and the fully loaded one will ~80K

Some of my assessments:
- Initial impressions of the vehicle are very favorable. Very balanced exterior proportions. The baby blue with white accents looks quite good. I thought I would not like the rounded nose but in person it looks good
- The external design is finalized and while the vehicle is tall, it isnt too wide. Its almost a perfect square which gives it balanced proportions
- The main headlights are bespoke to the Grenadier (look like a version of JW Speaker headlights to me) and the aux lights up front are Cibie LEDs
- All doors close with a solidity that is reassuring but the barn doors in the cargo area are not as solid feeling
- The double weather sealing is very good and meaty
- The spare tire mount itself is beefy but I didnt see any additional bracing on the hinges. My fear is if we go up a tire size and then add trash bag/ maxtrax etc, how much will it wear the door hinge. I didnt get a chance to ask. If anyone else could in Seattle that would be great
- The interior is a bit more cozy than I expected (caveat: I am a big-ish guy at 6' and 230lbs). This is where the modern safety needs like air-bags have eaten into the space a bit. Its still way more spacious than a Jeep but not a Land Cruiser 200 spacious. I think its probably the same as a new Mercedes G Wagon.
- However, the interior comfort is very good. The seats are Recaros front and rear. Well bolstered and good thigh support. No electronic adjustment..all manual. No adjustable lumbar for the driver or passenger. But they were immensely comfortable. I sat in the drivers seat and then then crawled in the rear seat right behind the driver and there was plenty of room for my 6' bulk. In absolute terms the rear leg room from the seat back to the back of the front seat ranges from 25" to 35" depending upon where you position the front seat. At my comfortable driving position the rear had 31" of leg room
- The middle seat is for kids only. The seat it self is comfortable but very limited leg room.
- The steering has manual tilt and telescopic function. It has a lot of range
- I had a chance to crawl under the vehicle and see the underbody. The fuel tank armor is a combination of plate steel and tubing on the perimeter. Looks very beefy..but I dont know if this is the final version
- The transfer case didnt have the vulnerable banjo bolt or pump in this version. So the final version remains to be seen
- The mechanicals are well tucked away and the clearance is a good ~10.5" at the lowest points. I measured it at the pumpkins, the trailing arm mounts (which are beefy and well armored) and the radiator bottoms
- Visually there is space in between the frame rails on the left side of the vehicle near the drive shaft for some aux tanks and also aft of the rear axle if the muffler can be relocated
- By my visual estimate there is enough space in the aux battery area for a proper 100aH battery..maybe more
- The sub text about the first comment on the engines is that..there is an option for a second generation of engines down the line. Although nothing officially stated
- All the interior plastics were for show only and I do hope they are done well in the final draft
- The cargo space is good but impeded by the sloping wheel arches for drawer build outs. I gave feedback to the team to look at flattening the wheel arches to make more usable space
- I also gave them feedback to look at creating an accessory shelf to fit above the sun visor in the space between the visor and the sun roof. All my feedback points were very well received
- Some interior dimensions (which were important for me for building a sleeping platform)
- Height from cargo floor to ceiling: 42"
- Width of the cargo area: 42" (at the marrowest between wheel arches), 58" (at the upper plastic area below the window), 64" (gullwing to gullwing)
- From the back of the first row of seats to the inside of the rear door ~68"

All in all I came away pretty impressed. The team was very forthcoming and I highly recommend folks to go take a look if the tour comes to your city.

I also took some videos and can upload them if anyone wants to see them
 
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Lots of great info here and very thorough...Thanks for sharing!

Videos or pics would be appreciated...
 

Paachi

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So here are some pictures and 6 quite quickly taken average quality videos. Hope this helps. The under body videos do show how much space is there underneath and how everything is robust and well tucked

Videos: 

Grenadier walk around 1 - Exterior and Interior: https://youtu.be/tQNS4evBykQ
Grenadier walk around 2 - Interior and Rear Exterior:  https://youtu.be/B4yDCkLSovs
Grenadier walk around 3 - Rear Exterior and Cargo:  https://youtu.be/V6wF6eb1ZKE
Grenadier walk around 4 - Underbody passenger side:  https://youtu.be/8CvsSViCN9M
Grenadier walk around 5 - Underbody aft of the rear axle:  https://youtu.be/Hw-iy_yMpaI
Grenadier walk around 6 - LHD Driver side underbody:  https://youtu.be/r9pnYy25CsQ

Images:
 IMG_8260.heic     
 IMG_8267.heic     
 IMG_8268.heic     
 IMG_8269.heic     
 IMG_8270.heic     
 IMG_8271.heic     
 IMG_8276.heic     
 IMG_8277.heic     
 IMG_8278.heic     
 
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Thanks for uploading the vids...I wasn't sure about the baby blue colour, but it looks nice with the white trim...Last time I checked though, that wasn't a selectable option.
 

ADVAW8S

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I believe it was said that only 40% of the options are available.  We might see the white show up.   
 

PL1

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My 2B experience in Seattle.  A lot of my questions are duplicated elsewhere, but some are new.   We all have questions based on our intended use of the Grenadier.

Grenadier 2B Tour - Seattle Personal observation first :If you receive an invitation, clear your calendar and go.  You will not be disappointed seeing the Grenadier and having the opportunity to ask questions.  Greg and his 2 assistants were very open with the information, answered tons of questions and when the traditional Defender owners are impressed you know Ineos Automotive [Grenadier] is on the right track.I thought I would be disappointed looking at a static display, but not at all.  Lucky I left my check book at home with ‘she who must be obeyed’ because I’m ready to sign up.Following are the questions I have answers to…  I hope this helpsExterior questions:17" v. 18" wheels – 31” or 33” tires on 18" wheels?  Larger brakes w. 18" wheels?Max. diameter that will fit inside the wheel well?33 inch without any wheel well modification.Greg has seen 35 inch in photos, but that was static so he’s not sure.17” or 18” wheel size doesn’t change the size of the brake calipers or rotors.How much does 18" wheels & tires change the approach & departure angles?        No, because the tire sidewall height changes between onroad & offroad tires.What's the standard ground clearance?        I didn’t ask because it’s on the website so I’ll look it up.Rear door strength for larger wheels or an equipment box?        They didn’t have a number but Greg said a 35” tire will fit on the door.        This sort of detail will be included in the website update, closer to production.Overall height on 18” wheels?        68 inches.        FYI – It’s a big step up to get inside, so rockslides or sidesteps aren’t really optional.Diff lock options – Front, Rear, All wheels?  Hi-Lo range?3 electronic diff locks.  Yes, Hi-Lo range. Traction options – Are onroad / offroad traction options selectable?  Hill descent control?Yes – There’s a rotary dial similar to LR Terrain Response.Heated windshield an option?Rain sensing wipers an option?No to both in the initial product launch, but Grenadier has had a lot of requests.Are mudflaps included or are they an option?Included as standard.Reversing camera & reversing lights?  [The last 4 are important in cold, snowy conditions.]Yes. Camera is positioned under the spare tire.There were no parking sensors on the 2B prototype, but they weren’t the production bumpers.Swap alpine windows in place of grab rails?  [TBH I don’t see the utility of the grab rails.]Not an option according to Grenadier.  Greg sort of commented they have had a lot of pro’s & con’s regarding the grab rails.Is a 2” receiver hitch standard?Wired receiver hitch will be an option. Tow bar height can be adjusted by 2 Inches? Interior questions:Carpet or rubber mats - Can the carpet be removed for easy cleaning?No – If you choose carpets, you’re stuck with them.         On the plus side, they’re warmer and cut down some road noise.Max. L x W x H dimensions of the rear load space with seats folded flat?L = 64 inches, W = 42 – 58 inches, H - 42 inchesInterior dimensions are to be finalized so they could change prior to production.60:40 split R/seat?  Does it fold completely flat to the floor?Yes.  Left side is 60, right side is 40.Folds flat but not quite flush with the floor.Grenadier might produce an option to raise the level of the loadspace to make it flush.Install 2-way radio & external antenna?I didn’t ask.Screen for GPS & reversing camera?Yes. Center console screen.Accessories & options:Is diesel a future option for Nth. America?Is the technical issue that Nth. America doesn’t produce low-sulpher diesel?TBD in the future and it depends on BMW getting the engine re-certified by the EPA.The diesel option is a ‘victim’ of BMW’s role in the ‘diesel-gate’ scandal.Dual battery option?  Where is 2nd battery located?  Is it pre-wired?Yes – Located under the rear passenger seat along with fuses.Is Grenadier working with ARB and / or Safety Devices?  Any 3rd parties in the US or Canada?Yes – ARB & Safety Devices.  Still working with 3rd parties to see who builds what accessories.What does pre-wired for accessories mean?  Wired from the switch to the fuse, and to the accessory?        Yes - Plug-and-play from the switch, to the fuse, to front or rear as needed.        My powered accessories will be offroad lights & work lights at the rear so that’s pre-wired.USB outlets?  120V outlet?  [I have electric tools it would be useful to power off the vehicle.]Yes – Several options depending on single battery v. dual battery installation.Misc:Ballpark pricing for US?  Range of prices?When I asked, Greg turned the question around and asked what I would expect to pay.My response, “Somewhat less than a new Defender with a few options, something more than a Jeep JL with a few options.  He said pricing will be firm by the end-of-year before Grenadier starts taking orders.How are pre-orders going?  Nth. America & RotW?Letters of expression are well into 6-figures worldwide, into 5-figures in the US with minimal marketing.Grenadier will attend the major offroad expos in the summer to get broader exposure.At the end of 2022, they will have pre-prod versions available for offroad driving tests. What’s a comfortable highway cruising speed? Not known, but they’re aiming for BMW NVH standards for onroad.What’s the fuel tank size and approx. range for petrol / diesel engine?Forgot to ask.Can you manually hold it in a gear?Yes – Can be driven as a semi-automatic.Is Grenadier speaking to service partners in western US and Canada?Yes – Moving to a dealership sales model because of legal requirements with direct sales.Is European delivery an option?  [Ship later to the US or Canada]Yes – Pick up at the factory.Any update on Hydrogen fuel cell power?At least 5 years out.  Working with Hyundai & BMWAny other options 'in the works' between now and delivery?Yes – Based on customer feedback but Greg wouldn’t commit to anything. Interior is still being finalized.  Interior dimensions could still change marginally. Additional notes:Greg said the current website and configurator is a ‘marketing teaser’.  In the summer there will be a major update to the website and the configurator upgraded to where potential owners will be able to build vehicles with close to production specifications.  Don’t remember if this version of the website will include pricing.Sales & Service model is a work in progress. Will probably include full-service auto dealerships in large population centers, but Grenadier doesn’t want huge dealerships where the brand gets lost in the volume.  Tier 2 sales & support in smaller cities provided by Bosch and equipment suppliers.  Greg said, more on this prior to the first North American sales.Greg was a bit vague about when they would be in the major Canadian cities.  I can’t speak to Mexico and South America.Finally, your invoice number does not reflect your position in the production builds.  Build sequence will be determined by the vehicles ordered with typical options, and the more ‘unique’ vehicles will be later in the build cycle.
 

HouseMD

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My wife and I were at the 10:00 preview for the Grenadier in Seattle.  Heard lots of the same things from the team that has already been stated here. Greg and Tim were particularly insightful and candid about the whole process, the vehicle itself, the LR connection(s) and didn’t really seem to hold anything back. 

The vehicle itself was far better than I’d anticipated. I was 80-85% going in, but left feeling 100% confident about it meeting our needs. This feels like it’s going to fill the gap nicely in the crater of ill-advised mistakes that McGovern left in failing to “Defend” heritage of a company that most of us have loved for many years. This vehicle feels like it is truly picking up a dropped baton and moving forward not only with some great borrowed design and tried/true companies assisting, but also new ideas that feel fresh. 

It will be interesting to see what unfolds over the next year as deliveries begin across the pond and as we continue to wait Stateside for this beasty tank of an off-roader.


 

 

 

 

 


 

Paachi

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Thanks a lot!! Very detailed walkthrough feedback. Wasn't the event fun?? I had a really good time and like you said Greg and team were very forthcoming with as much information they could share. 

Pricing - wise, Greg asked me the same question..hehe. I am betting they are eyeing the $70 - $80K price point. Lets see.

I am surprised he said yes to an EU delivery. He was very categorical with our group that they couldn't accomodate that. 
 

Bruce

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I think you're right on with pricing. If they can split the difference between wrangler and defender as lot of people will be happy. 

Under the rear seat there was plenty of room for a 2 way radio body, and fat battery cables feeding everything. Not a final build vehicle but I can imagine there will be room for stuff under there. The rep said there will be some sort of connectors (tbd) along the roofline for lights.

I actually thought the grab rails were pretty slick. Functional as tiedowns for the occasional kayak, mount points for crossbars, etc. Windows would be really nice but not as functional.

The invoice numbers not reflecting build order is not ideal but they sounded confident that they will be able to build enough volume that nobody will be disappointed that they were unappreciated for backing the vision early.
 

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Paachi said:
I am surprised he said yes to an EU delivery. He was very categorical with our group that they couldn't accomodate that. 

I asked the question and I heard someone else ask.  Greg said pick-up at the factory, factory tour and same conditions as European delivery as any other manufacturer.  He provided the information without any hesitation, so I think it's on the cards. 
 

Stu_Barnes

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Thats interesting about the European delivery as it was a definitive no when it was asked in la. Factory tour was a definitive yes if we wished. 
So maybe they’re actually taking the feedback and requests onboard and responding to customer wants. 
That has to be a good thing. 
 

PowerfulUSUltd

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@Stu_Barnes, same thought here. I think they are responding to feedback. I was in Seattle with the 12pm group, the impression that I got was that European delivery might be an option for the early reservations. I think that makes sense if the dealer network wrinkles haven’t been ironed out by next year? Regarding my price my group kept saying 50s to Greg’s rhetorical question. Won’t be 50s, he entertained 60s, but I assume that’s high 60s to 69,999. My guess is 60s for a very basic product. That at least gets people in the door to think about it. Once you’ve done that, options start to make sense versus aftermarket pricing. I think 70s scares away too many people. Anyways, my pics:            
 

ADVAW8S

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Here are my pics. Not whole lot I can add from. The Seattle tour
 

PL1

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@ADVAW8S Thanks for posting the pics.  Your's are much better than mine because of the lighting in Seattle.
 

grenadierguy

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Have you guys seen this picture? Taken off Facebook, not taken by me.  
 
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