Fusilier On Hold???

[LabRat]

Failed products doesn't mean that most Americans are anti-EV or "don't want" EV's. It just means there isn't an EV on the market now that they will buy right now. That's an important distinction. There are certainly crappy EV's and ICE vehicles out there right now. It doesn't mean I am anti-ICE or or EV. There are also some very nice EV's and ICE vehicles that I would buy (or have).

Yeah, they're beating down the dealership doors to buy EVs.

 

[LabRat]

So popular - they have to discount them away

GM increases family plan discounts, but makes majority of them for EVs

 

[LeeroyJ]

So your logic is that because some of the early offerings of the EV industry represent unattractive deals to some portion of the population, that we should just abandon them and abandon our lead in producing them while almost every other industrial country is moving towards them?

Really, what do you envision the streets will look like in thirty years. Do you really think they will primarily be full of ICE vehicles?

 

[LabRat]

So your logic is that because some of the early offerings of the EV industry represent unattractive deals to some portion of the population, that we should just abandon them and abandon our lead in producing them while almost every other industrial country is moving towards them?

Really, what do you envision the streets will look like in thirty years. Do you really think they will primarily be full of ICE vehicles?

No, I'm saying let the market decide what they want, not be forced into something because a government mandates it or mandates the alternative out of existance. In 30 years, there might be something even better than an EV, that is far less destructive to the environment.

 

[LeeroyJ]

That would be fine if we were participating in a free market. The problem is the Chinese are heavily subsidizing their domestic EV manufacturing in order to gain market share. If we ignore that now, we will never get it back.

 

[LabRat]

That would be fine if we were participating in a free market. The problem is the Chinese are heavily subsidizing their domestic EV manufacturing in order to gain market share. If we ignore that now, we will never get it back.

So you're suggesting we heavily subsidize US automakers to build cars/trucks that are competitive that the general public don't want in large numbers.

 

[landmannnn]

Apparently BYD (world's largest car maker) got government subsidies of about $200M in 2020, $2billion in 2023, 2024 not yet published.

If you have followed this forum for a while you will appreciate that $2bn is absolute peanuts.

 

[LeeroyJ]

So you're suggesting we heavily subsidize US automakers to build cars/trucks that are competitive that the general public don't want in large numbers.

Yes. We are screwing with the free market in many ways with tariffs at the moment. Why not support a new industry that is (imho) going to be the predominant form of transportation in the near future, in order to give it a fighting chance against the Chinese. The EV industry is strategically hugely important to the US and ignoring the fact that it is fighting with one hand tied behind its back is just giving the Chinese an easy path to dominance.

I still don't agree that current offerings are un-competitive or that the general public doesn't want them (probably for trucks, but not cars and SUV's), but that really is beside the point.

 

[LeeroyJ]

Apparently BYD (world's largest car maker) got government subsidies of about $200M in 2020, $2billion in 2023, 2024 not yet published.

If you have followed this forum for a while you will appreciate that $2bn is absolute peanuts.

That's only the direct easily visible government assistance. There are also less visible ways that the Chinese government subsidizes the domestic EV industry. For example, when I was in Shanghai, if you wanted to buy an ICE vehicle you had to enter a lottery in order to get a license plate, and if you won, the plate (registration) was ~$50,000. For EV's you didn't have to enter the lottery and registration was free.

Here is a summary from Google AI of other ways the Chinese government is subsidizing its 100+ EV manufacturers:

Supply-side support

• Manufacturing Prizes and Model Development Prizes: Providing grants and incentives to automakers to promote EV model development and production.
• Direct Subsidies to Manufacturers: Offering financial grants to EV makers, such as BYD and Tesla (for vehicles produced in China), to offset production costs and encourage expansion.
• Subsidized Key Inputs: Ensuring lower prices for critical materials such as steel, rare earth elements, and potentially other components through government subsidies and regulations in related industries.
• Preferential Land and Financing Arrangements: Offering cheaper land and financing (below-market interest rate loans and equity injections) to EV manufacturers, particularly state-owned enterprises (SOEs) and listed private firms, according to a CSIS report.
• Research and Development Support: Directly funding and providing tax exemptions for R&D related to EV technology, including batteries, fuel cells, and other components.
• Charging Infrastructure Subsidies: Investing heavily in public and dedicated charging infrastructure, including construction subsidies and operational subsidies for charging station operators.

Demand-side support

• Purchase Subsidies and Tax Breaks: Offering direct financial subsidies (though mostly phased out at the central level by end 2022) and purchase tax exemptions to consumers buying domestically produced EVs or eligible joint venture EVs.
• Vehicle Replacement Subsidies: Providing incentives for consumers to trade in older vehicles (both fuel-powered and existing EVs) for new EVs or ICE vehicles meeting specific standards.
• Exemption from Purchase Restrictions: In cities with vehicle purchase limitations (lotteries, restrictions based on license plates), EVs are exempt from these restrictions, making them easier to acquire and drive.
• Driving Restrictions Exemptions and Preferential Road Rights: Allowing EVs to use designated lanes (bus lanes) and exempting them from traffic control restrictions in some cities.
• Parking Incentives: Offering reduced or waived parking fees and even dedicated parking spots for EVs in some cities.
• Subsidized Charging: Providing discounted electricity tariffs, government-guided pricing for charging and switching service fees, and incorporating grid-conversion costs into generator tariffs for EV charging facilities.
• Government Procurement: Actively purchasing EVs for government use, public transport, and other public service sectors, thus creating a demand base for the industry.
• Consumer Awareness Campaigns: Promoting the adoption of EVs through various initiatives and information dissemination.

Impact and Evolution

• These extensive subsidies have contributed significantly to the rapid growth of the Chinese EV industry, enabling domestic manufacturers to develop and compete, and stimulating a large domestic market for EVs.
• While direct purchase subsidies for consumers were largely phased out by the end of 2022, other forms of support, including sales tax exemptions and charging infrastructure support, continue to be in effect.
• The government's focus is shifting towards refining the support system to promote high-quality development, focusing more on charging infrastructure and other long-term enablers.

It is important to note:

• Some of these subsidies have been criticized for potentially distorting market competition and creating overcapacity within the EV sector.
• The exact scale and value of certain indirect subsidies, like preferential land and credit, are difficult to quantify precisely.
• While the national subsidy scheme ended in 2022, local and regional governments may still offer incentives for EV adoption and industry development.

 

[LabRat]

That's only the direct easily visible government assistance. There are also less visible ways that the Chinese government subsidizes the domestic EV industry. For example, when I was in Shanghai, if you wanted to buy an ICE vehicle you had to enter a lottery in order to get a license plate, and if you won, the plate (registration) was ~$50,000. For EV's you didn't have to enter the lottery and registration was free.

Here is a summary from Google AI of other ways the Chinese government is subsidizing its 100+ EV manufacturers:

So you just demonstrated that not even the Chinese want them and need to be coerced into buying them.

 

[Zimm]

No, I'm saying let the market decide what they want, not be forced into something because a government mandates it or mandates the alternative out of existance. In 30 years, there might be something even better than an EV, that is far less destructive to the environment.

This is a HS level understanding of economics and the market. None of the entire world you are in contact with every day, from the roads, to the healthy food, to your medical care, to the internet you are kabitzing on, to the dollar account you live on, exists because the free market willed it so. None of it. And nothing happening that funds new technologies, precludes any other innovation in technologies. The only thing stifling innovation here right now, is an orange idiot cutting research funding, and subsidizing ancient fossil fuel industries to keep carbon king for his donors. The brain drain its causing is irreversible, and our industries, our way of life, and our children will pay dearly for it.

 

[LabRat]

This is a HS level understanding of economics and the market. None of the entire world you are in contact with every day, from the roads, to the healthy food, to your medical care, to the internet you are kabitzing on, to the dollar account you live on, exists because the free market willed it so. None of it. And nothing happening that funds new technologies, precludes any other innovation in technologies. The only thing stifling innovation here right now, is an orange idiot cutting research funding, and subsidizing ancient fossil fuel industries to keep carbon king for his donors. The brain drain its causing is irreversible, and our industries, our way of life, and our children will pay dearly for it.

Holy f#*k Trump continues to life rent free in your head. You must be real fun at parties.

 

[LeeroyJ]

So you just demonstrated that not even the Chinese want them and need to be coerced into buying them.

No all that has been demonstrated here is that you do not have an open mind to consider a reality that is different from the propaganda you have bought into.

 

[LabRat]

No all that has been demonstrated here is that you do not have an open mind to consider a reality that is different from the propaganda you have bought into.

It is not propaganda because you gave the data yourself that the Chinese have to heavily subsidize a vehicle Because it cannot be manufactured at the price. The market is willing to pay for it. It is not propaganda that the Chinese government has to impose, punitive registration fees on a traditional internal combustion engine vehicle in order to get people to buy these heavily subsidized electric vehicles. It’s not propaganda that the US auto manufacturers has lost billions of dollars trying to create electric vehicles That the market will buy.

 

[LeeroyJ]

1) The startup process is hugely expensive.

2) Designing products that people will want with new technology is hugely challenging.

3) The long-term result is certain -- ICE cars will go the way of the Dodo sooner or later. Who dominates the production of EV's is still up for grabs.

The Chinese government has the vision to know it needs to help with 1 and 2 in order to win at #3.

The US political system and talk-show propaganda mechanism has created an environment where we can't focus on #3 because we've stuck it into the bucket of being "woke". That's pathetic. It could have just as easily gone into the other bucket. "We have to support EV's because they result in American investment, American jobs, and maintain the US's leadership in the Automotive industry." But those points are ignored because "climate change is a hoax and that's all EV's are about."

 

[LC0013]

Failed products doesn't mean that most Americans are anti-EV or "don't want" EV's. It just means there isn't an EV on the market now that they will buy right now. That's an important distinction. There are certainly crappy EV's and ICE vehicles out there right now. It doesn't mean I am anti-ICE or or EV. There are also some very nice EV's and ICE vehicles that I would buy (or have).

Nah, pretty much anti EV:

"Electric vehicle sales continue to hit record highs, but the pace of growth in the United States has slowed for the first time since mid-2020. And a new Pew Research Center survey finds that only about three-in-ten Americans say they would very or somewhat seriously consider purchasing an electric vehicle (EV), down 9 percentage points in the past year."

Seems to me EV's are at the same spot they were 100 years ago- no infrastructure and not enough miles on a charge. Really the same spot when the horse and the ICE came together. When infrastructure and milage, on EV's, get better there will be more buyers of EV's however, not at my house, due to my age and my driving habits. When you are out in the middle of nowhere and have a difficult time finding a gas station I am pretty sure a charging station is not going to be available either. Much easier to carry extra fuel than fuel and a generator.

As to point #3 above - ICE will only be gone if politically mandated so or if politically taxed out of existence. It would be stupid to get rid of ICE and then rely only on one type of powered transportation and pretty sure we will need fossil fuel for tanks and airplanes for a long long time.

As to point #1 above - So what? Venture Capitalist came come up with huge sums for investing purposes. Heck, let the Chinese forge ahead with EV's and then we can just steal their technology like they have stolen ours.

 

[LabRat]

Nah, pretty much anti EV:

"Electric vehicle sales continue to hit record highs, but the pace of growth in the United States has slowed for the first time since mid-2020. And a new Pew Research Center survey finds that only about three-in-ten Americans say they would very or somewhat seriously consider purchasing an electric vehicle (EV), down 9 percentage points in the past year."

Seems to me EV's are at the same spot they were 100 years ago- no infrastructure and not enough miles on a charge. Really the same spot when the horse and the ICE came together. When infrastructure and milage, on EV's, get better there will be more buyers of EV's however, not at my house, due to my age and my driving habits. When you are out in the middle of nowhere and have a difficult time finding a gas station I am pretty sure a charging station is not going to be available either. Much easier to carry extra fuel than fuel and a generator.

Come on man, just call AAA and they can eventually come out with a diesel generator in tow to charge you right back up.

 

[RY-Journeyman]

You need to get a good mechanic! You even get titanium screws and billet plates.
"In patients who are finished growing, the longer limb can sometimes be shortened to even out the leg lengths.

To do this, the doctor removes a section of bone from the middle of the longer limb, then inserts metal plates and screws or a rod to hold the bone in place while it heals."

Haha. The old orthopaedic (or six million dollar man) mantra - “we can rebuild you”. Or rather the one I prefer that “orthopaedists are pretty bad carpenters but get away with it because bone heals and remodels”.

Issue to fix lump in floor I’m sure is profit. Easy to redesign, but cost including for compliance and remanufacture of RHD specific mass produced components would be high. Would they ever get a return on that investment… especially as the biggest markets - Europe and USA - are LHD? So lump will stay until sales numbers increase enough to make fixing it profitable.

I don’t mind the lump. It seems to fit my leg size so thankfully I won’t need leg shortening from the dodgy carpenters. lol.

 

[RY-Journeyman]

Come on man, just call AAA and they can eventually come out with a diesel generator in tow to charge you right back up.

Or better still just carry a generator and fuel in the car boot. And a roof top tent to take a nap whilst it charges for the day. There. Solved.

 

[OkGo]

I think the sad reality of things is that we, the people, are the product. And everyone who can, seems to be in on squeezing for juice.

Side note : There are so many compelling arguments being made on this thread for/against different aspects and many considerations. Happy to be a part of a group, virtual or otherwise, able to still find a common rally point amongst the chaos around us.