Americas Front Driveshaft CV redesign

[Commodore]

Ineos crew, there is an issue with the front driveshaft CV at the transfer case side. The acute driveline angle generates heat causing the rubber on the CV to rip and spill grease. This leads to failure of the CV joint and ultimately immediate loss of forward propulsion. The failures have been well documented. Do you have plans to redesign this part or should owners start looking for their own permanent solutions?

This is a serious safety concern that needs to be resolved.

 

[Slov]

Gwagons properly setup are amazing vehicles and would be a very comparable vehicle to a Grenadier. You have to get a previous generation though. The new ones though still capable are a bit less rugged.

I'm not a Toyota fan, but the aftermarket support is insane and they are very reliable vehicles that function and feel like anything else. They would be a relatively natural transition from a Subaru. Try a low mileage older truck with solid axles and you will likely be very happy.

And then finally, I have said it once or twice, but I cant say enough good things about Rivians. A quad motor with the 400+mi battery pack is an amazing all around vehicle. It doesn't have solid axles and is certainly a learning curve for charging, but the downsides are so minimized by the upsides. If I sold the Grenadier today I would buy another Rivian in the same day.

So, if you are up for an older low mileage vehicle you have a ton of great options. Get a Yota to cover all bases. If you want a little more of a head turning look then build up a Gwagon and never look back. If you are ok with new and have the budget I would give Rivian a hard look. Great support in Phoenix for Rivians.

I don't gather you are rock crawling or generally going to work a Grenadier too hard so if may be a bit more than is necessary considering the trade offs. Though they look cool that's just not enough sometimes.

I dont know a whole lot about Rivians if I am honest, but I am hesitant to get an EV for an overloading vehicle in general. I've pushed the limits of my Forester, and the more I want to do, the more I feel limited. So, don't want to be spending 50-85k and get a vehicle that I'm limited by.

With the Yotas, an older LC is just hard to find and I'm already going to have to pay a decent amount for one. I'm not impressed with the new generation 4Runner or LC250 either due to payload limits and engine tech. Legroom in an old Taco at 6'1 is just not good, and I've driven one. So, it's mainly an SUV or full size truck for me. I've been around this conversation so many times in my head. The previous generation G Wagons look solid except due to maintenance costs, but are going to be cheaper up front than a Grenadier.

Honestly, I'm just looking to buy a Grenadier. I'm not gonna blow smoke up someone's butt, or lie. The only true vehicle I considered was an LC250 for a long time, and that came off my list due to payload and the tiny engine. It has roughly the same payload as my forester due to the hybrid battery. To me, thats just unacceptable for a LC badge since it's a Prado. Then you get up to the GX550 and you're already in Grenadier territory. All these GX dealers want 20-30k over MSRP and thats just comical. So, hopefully you get where I'm coming from.

This whole drive shaft issue may be a deal breaker to some, but I am also wondering if it's just blown out of proportion? Just take a look every now and then, know it's a replaceable part and then swap it out. Is it a challenging swap? I've never swapped a drive shaft.

 

[Clark Kent]

I dont know a whole lot about Rivians if I am honest, but I am hesitant to get an EV for an overloading vehicle in general. I've pushed the limits of my Forester, and the more I want to do, the more I feel limited. So, don't want to be spending 50-85k and get a vehicle that I'm limited by.

With the Yotas, an older LC is just hard to find and I'm already going to have to pay a decent amount for one. I'm not impressed with the new generation 4Runner or LC250 either due to payload limits and engine tech. Legroom in an old Taco at 6'1 is just not good, and I've driven one. So, it's mainly an SUV or full size truck for me. I've been around this conversation so many times in my head. The previous generation G Wagons look solid except due to maintenance costs, but are going to be cheaper up front than a Grenadier.

Honestly, I'm just looking to buy a Grenadier. I'm not gonna blow smoke up someone's butt, or lie. The only true vehicle I considered was an LC250 for a long time, and that came off my list due to payload and the tiny engine. It has roughly the same payload as my forester due to the hybrid battery. To me, thats just unacceptable for a LC badge since it's a Prado. Then you get up to the GX550 and you're already in Grenadier territory. All these GX dealers want 20-30k over MSRP and thats just comical. So, hopefully you get where I'm coming from.

This whole drive shaft issue may be a deal breaker to some, but I am also wondering if it's just blown out of proportion? Just take a look every now and then, know it's a replaceable part and then swap it out. Is it a challenging swap? I've never swapped a drive shaft.

I like my Grenadier. I bought into it eyes wide open and I didn't expect a completely trouble-free experience. It's more off-road capable than I need which is preferable to needing more off-road capability than I have. It gives me options. Meanwhile, it's comfortable enough and liveable enough for a daily driver. But I'm not in a city urban environment battling traffic and car parks Monday to Friday so it works for me but I'm not you. Neither is anyone else on here

My best suggestion would be to get off this forum and go find some vehicles and drive them. That's Grenadiers and other types. Advice is recycled experience curated by selectivity. It's not always reliable. I think you have gained enough information to go and create your own experience and see where you end up. Just keep in mind there are no perfect vehicles and everything you drive will be a compromise for your lifestyle.
Analysis paralysis is a bitch.

 

[evomind]

Fair argument. G Wagons are just a status symbol here in Scottsdale and I’m annoyed by them honestly, ha.

I gotcha...but....
Ive always loved old school Ferraris when they were drivers cars, sports cars.
It's not the cars fault they have become posuer cars. Thats the owners faults and Ferrari catering to their clientele.
The cars itself still rock though.

 

[Tom109]

I gotcha...but....
Ive always loved old school Ferraris when they were drivers cars, sports cars.
It's not the cars fault they have become posuer cars. Thats the owners faults and Ferrari catering to their clientele.
The cars itself still rock though.

The few new ones I’ve seen locally sound like a VW sedan.

 

[theox]

I dont know a whole lot about Rivians if I am honest, but I am hesitant to get an EV for an overloading vehicle in general. I've pushed the limits of my Forester, and the more I want to do, the more I feel limited. So, don't want to be spending 50-85k and get a vehicle that I'm limited by.

With the Yotas, an older LC is just hard to find and I'm already going to have to pay a decent amount for one. I'm not impressed with the new generation 4Runner or LC250 either due to payload limits and engine tech. Legroom in an old Taco at 6'1 is just not good, and I've driven one. So, it's mainly an SUV or full size truck for me. I've been around this conversation so many times in my head. The previous generation G Wagons look solid except due to maintenance costs, but are going to be cheaper up front than a Grenadier.

Honestly, I'm just looking to buy a Grenadier. I'm not gonna blow smoke up someone's butt, or lie. The only true vehicle I considered was an LC250 for a long time, and that came off my list due to payload and the tiny engine. It has roughly the same payload as my forester due to the hybrid battery. To me, thats just unacceptable for a LC badge since it's a Prado. Then you get up to the GX550 and you're already in Grenadier territory. All these GX dealers want 20-30k over MSRP and thats just comical. So, hopefully you get where I'm coming from.

This whole drive shaft issue may be a deal breaker to some, but I am also wondering if it's just blown out of proportion? Just take a look every now and then, know it's a replaceable part and then swap it out. Is it a challenging swap? I've never swapped a drive shaft.

Its not too terrible, especially if you're mechanically inclined. I was looking for my Rubicon, but with more towing capacity and more payload. I found that in the Grenadier and I'm willing to accept the compromises and quirks. Its a super unique vehicle and I doubt they'll be another like it that comes along anywhere in the foreseeable future. Personally, I think you should buy one

 

[Shopkeep]

I dont know a whole lot about Rivians if I am honest, but I am hesitant to get an EV for an overloading vehicle in general. I've pushed the limits of my Forester, and the more I want to do, the more I feel limited. So, don't want to be spending 50-85k and get a vehicle that I'm limited by.

With the Yotas, an older LC is just hard to find and I'm already going to have to pay a decent amount for one. I'm not impressed with the new generation 4Runner or LC250 either due to payload limits and engine tech. Legroom in an old Taco at 6'1 is just not good, and I've driven one. So, it's mainly an SUV or full size truck for me. I've been around this conversation so many times in my head. The previous generation G Wagons look solid except due to maintenance costs, but are going to be cheaper up front than a Grenadier.

Honestly, I'm just looking to buy a Grenadier. I'm not gonna blow smoke up someone's butt, or lie. The only true vehicle I considered was an LC250 for a long time, and that came off my list due to payload and the tiny engine. It has roughly the same payload as my forester due to the hybrid battery. To me, thats just unacceptable for a LC badge since it's a Prado. Then you get up to the GX550 and you're already in Grenadier territory. All these GX dealers want 20-30k over MSRP and thats just comical. So, hopefully you get where I'm coming from.

This whole drive shaft issue may be a deal breaker to some, but I am also wondering if it's just blown out of proportion? Just take a look every now and then, know it's a replaceable part and then swap it out. Is it a challenging swap? I've never swapped a drive shaft.

"This whole drive shaft issue may be a deal breaker to some, but I am also wondering if it's just blown out of proportion? Just take a look every now and then, know it's a replaceable part and then swap it out"

You seem to have your head screwed on the right way, you would be very happy with the Grenadier.

 

[Slov]

Its not too terrible, especially if you're mechanically inclined. I was looking for my Rubicon, but with more towing capacity and more payload. I found that in the Grenadier and I'm willing to accept the compromises and quirks. Its a super unique vehicle and I doubt they'll be another like it that comes along anywhere in the foreseeable future. Personally, I think you should buy one

At this point I’ve driven a Ranger, 6th Gen 4Runner, and LC250. Lexus doesn’t even let you touch the GX550 based off current demands unless you buy it.

The Grenadier was the last vehicle I drove, and it was for the longest time period I do have some suburban driving based off where I live, but I’m not in downtown Phoenix.

I should probably just trust my gut, because the only downside was turning radius for parking and I don’t really care about that too much. It’s still better than a full size truck.

I loved it for a reason and it’s why I put an order in 3 months ago. I’m gonna shut this can of worms for me

 

[theox]

At this point I’ve driven a Ranger, 6th Gen 4Runner, and LC250. Lexus doesn’t even let you touch the GX550 based off current demands unless you buy it.

The Grenadier was the last vehicle I drove, and it was for the longest time period I do have some suburban driving based off where I live, but I’m not in downtown Phoenix.

I should probably just trust my gut, because the only downside was turning radius for parking and I don’t really care about that too much. It’s still better than a full size truck.

I loved it for a reason and it’s why I put an order in 3 months ago. I’m gonna shut this can of worms for me

I x-shopped the GX550 as well, it was disappointing, particularly for a Lexus. I was pretty shocked how cheap it felt on the inside compared to the Lexus I've owned in the past. The cargo area was not terribly bigger than the Jeep either.

 

[Slov]

I x-shopped the GX550 as well, it was disappointing, particularly for a Lexus. I was pretty shocked how cheap it felt on the inside compared to the Lexus I've owned in the past. The cargo area was not terribly bigger than the Jeep either.

Doesnt surprise me. The LC250 doors felt super flimsy and cheap to me compared to even my Forester, NO JOKE.

The build quality/ feel of the Grenadier was one of the big selling points for me.

 

[Dokatd]

Doesnt surprise me. The LC250 doors felt super flimsy and cheap to me compared to even my Forester, NO JOKE.

The build quality/ feel of the Grenadier was one of the big selling points for me.

Wow, a vehicle that felt cheaper than a Forester?!?

I just can't imagine that.

The grenadier is stout for sure. It's a chunk as a result.

But the drive shaft issue is real. Dealers are literally stocking up on shafts. It's not hard at all to fix or replace though. If you don't lift it then you will likely be fine for 50k miles give or take. Just keep the front end from getting light as that's where the stock height trucks become vulnerable. If you lift the truck you will seriously reduce your mileage per joint.

That said, put some limit straps on to stop the axle from that last 1.5" of travel and you will be in really solid shape stock or lifted.

 

[evomind]

Wow, a vehicle that felt cheaper than a Forester?!?

I just can't imagine that.

The grenadier is stout for sure. It's a chunk as a result.

But the drive shaft issue is real. Dealers are literally stocking up on shafts. It's not hard at all to fix or replace though. If you don't lift it then you will likely be fine for 50k miles give or take. Just keep the front end from getting light as that's where the stock height trucks become vulnerable. If you lift the truck you will seriously reduce your mileage per joint.

That said, put some limit straps on to stop the axle from that last 1.5" of travel and you will be in really solid shape stock or lifted.

See but all that kinda defeats the whole reason most people would buy these.
C'mon.

 

[Tazzieman]

See but all that kinda defeats the whole reason most people would buy these.
C'mon.

Most? There will be a fair number of Fieldmasters that don't get the chance articulate much. And much overlanding doesn't involve huge amounts of flex. Just load carrying capacity and good traction.
Rock crawling in the USA - you have special needs. Maybe Ineos will cater for them when the Big Beautiful factory is built.

 

[Slov]

Wow, a vehicle that felt cheaper than a Forester?!?

I just can't imagine that.

The grenadier is stout for sure. It's a chunk as a result.

But the drive shaft issue is real. Dealers are literally stocking up on shafts. It's not hard at all to fix or replace though. If you don't lift it then you will likely be fine for 50k miles give or take. Just keep the front end from getting light as that's where the stock height trucks become vulnerable. If you lift the truck you will seriously reduce your mileage per joint.

That said, put some limit straps on to stop the axle from that last 1.5" of travel and you will be in really solid shape stock or lifted.

You must of had some bad experience with Subaru, haha. I’ve had great success for the most part with me. Great interior for the cost. Solid use in Alaskan snow, and drove it cross country. Handles some solid off roading even stock. Not much but I was surprised.

The only thing I hate is Auto Start/Stop crashing multiple times when you don’t fully let off the brake and it turns the vehicle into a brick at a stop light with 20 cars honking at you.

That being said, yes. The doors on the LC250 felt that thin and flimsy. My forester had better doors than what I felt on that test drive. It shocked me too… I know.

I don’t plan on lifting the grenadier at all. Keeping it stock for the most part. Skid plates, side steps and a roof rack mostly. Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) for the build.

Thanks for the tips though! What do you mean by limit straps? I’ve never heard of such a thing.

 

[Slov]

See but all that kinda defeats the whole reason most people would buy these.
C'mon.

I don’t recall most guys rock crawling with tons of flex in Defenders, which this vehicle is based off of. Maybe I’m wrong on this, and I’ll certainly admit it if I am. Can a Defender/ Grenadier do rock crawling, like a Jeep? Absolutely. From what I understand this was a 4x4 overland and expedition vehicle, not meant to rock crawl constantly over Moab like terrain.

Shouldn't our own expectations on the longevity of parts change when we are going beyond the stock philosophy of use of this vehicle? That would technically apply to any vehicle we lift, not just the Grenadier. At that point, any hard use, pushing the limits of a vehicle, or extra lift beyond stock is naturally going to cause premature wear. Now could IA do a better job with giving better tolerance via redesign to allow more room for error? Yea, I’d certainly agree on that front 100%.

Id like to see how much of their alleged testing with IA was just cross country 4x4, and expedition based vs rock crawling. All of those were stock heights and angles too I’m assuming.

For example, I’m not going to take a 500lb BMW GS adventure motorcycle on some gnarly two track trails off road meant for a 4 stroke dirtbike, or expect insane ballistics out of my 5.56 AR-15 out past 5-600 yards when a .308 or 300 Win Mag would be better served for long range precision. Can these bikes/ rifles do the job and stretch? Yea, absolutely, but it’s not OPTIMIZED for the job like the optimal bike/ rifle mentioned in the latter half of each analogy.

Heck, Agile Off-road and Adrenaline HQ did a rally in Baja recently, like 7-800 miles I believe with their Grenadiers pushing them pretty dang hard. One of them even had a spare drive shaft they brought/ custom mounted in their roof rack. They swapped it out relatively quickly, but they didn’t hide it. Once swapped, the rig kept on truckin! They had also done Moab and Colorado trips in Grenadiers few months prior to that event.

At what point are we just worrying too much on forums instead of doing what this rig was meant to do? TO GET OUT AND EXPLORE! This is coming from someone with paralysis by analysis on perfect dirtbike and rifle build/ setups .

I’m not trying to downplay any criticism, but just trying to be devils advocate here on realistic usage and expectations. Maybe the Grenadier isn’t the vehicle for all, or some issues are deal breakers, and that’s okay! Ain’t nothing wrong with that one bit.

 

[Dokatd]

I don’t recall most guys rock crawling with tons of flex in Defenders, which this vehicle is based off of. Maybe I’m wrong on this, and I’ll certainly admit it if I am. Can a Defender/ Grenadier do rock crawling, like a Jeep? Absolutely. From what I understand this was a 4x4 overland and expedition vehicle, not meant to rock crawl constantly over Moab like terrain.

Well, you can go ahead and admit it now.

Yes Land Rovers and more specifically the 80-90's Defenders were excellent Rock Crawlers. We used them heavily in stock and modified form. They didn't come with lockers so that was a minimum mod. I owned NSO which was a small outfit developing parts specifically for Rock Crawling rovers. Outside of normal stuff we built fairly extreme trucks and hybrid axle assemblies etc. I even built a D90 that competed in King of the Hammers. It was heavily modified after the first year as I built it for a different mission and though it held up it just wasn't competitive.

Middle pic is a bonus of me rebuilding a Rover diff in the hotel parking lot in Moab in the late 90's - early 2000's.

 

[Slov]

Well, you can go ahead and admit it now.

Yes Land Rovers and more specifically the 80-90's Defenders were excellent Rock Crawlers. We used them heavily in stock and modified form. They didn't come with lockers so that was a minimum mod. I owned NSO which was a small outfit developing parts specifically for Rock Crawling rovers. Outside of normal stuff we built fairly extreme trucks and hybrid axle assemblies etc. I even built a D90 that competed in King of the Hammers. It was heavily modified after the first year as I built it for a different mission and though it held up it just wasn't competitive.

Middle pic is a bonus of me rebuilding a Rover diff in the hotel parking lot in Moab in the late 90's - early 2000's.View attachment 7912457View attachment 7912462View attachment 7912463

Mate, that is just mad impressive . I was certainly wrong, HAHA. My question is, were there issues with CV angles or drive shaft issues with these custom builds or even lifts from stock?

 

[Dokatd]

Mate, that is just mad impressive . I was certainly wrong, HAHA. My question is, were there issues with CV angles or drive shaft issues with these custom builds or even lifts from stock?

Lift from stock in the 90's were similar to Grenadiers today in respect to height. 2" was pretty tall for the USA at least. OME and combinations of disco springs were used. It's all very similar to today. However, the drive shaft was not nearly as problematic. If you had some real mileage on your drive shaft before you lifted then it was smart to replace the Ujoints as they would grumble and eventually fail due to the joints taking a set. But once you changed the joints they did alright. As an upgrade we changed to Double Cardan shafts from either a Disco II or a custom built unit. But the drive shaft angles were all around more functional on the Defender regardless of how weird the phased drive shafts were. And the weird angles involved really helped when switching to Double Cardan. As well the axles were on radius arms which kept the pinion always pointing at the T-Case flange. The Grenadier suspension makes things worse as you extend because the front axle starts to roll the pinion down slightly as you approach full extension.

The stupid thing about the Grenadier is that Rover, Mercedes, Toyota etc all figure this out long long ago. Ineos basically just said wipe the board clean, let's try something different and stupid for seemingly no good reason. I can only think Cararro had something to do with it due to conservative limits on their axle design.

It's just stupid and super short sighted. It could have been solved with a simple phone call to a couple suppliers before production. But now we are stuck with trucks that Ineos will probably never provide an official repair for.