Diesel powered to US

[Emil]

So I've done some work on petrol v diesel. Long post for anyone interested in a running cost comparison.

We have a choice of engine in Australia. I really wanted to pick petrol because I think diesel has a limited long term future, but I picked diesel again because that is the better option for me because I tow a camper and I travel long distances when I'm on road trips.

We're a metric country so @ryket's 18 US MPG converts to 17.07 litres/100km.
My long term diesel average combined economy is 11.5 litres/100km (20.55 US MPG).
My highway average is 10.8 litres/100km (21.78 US MPG).

On an MPG basis my diesel is not significantly better than ryket's petrol (gas). Economy is just one part of the story. Running cost and range per tank are others.

Unusually, there is no difference in purchase price for petrol or diesel and the relative servicing costs don't appear to be a significant either so the diesel v petrol decision largely comes down to running cost and pattern of use.
Some buyers will naturally shy away from diesel because of the Euro 6 DPF and DEF (AdBlue) requirements and cost. In my calcs below I have added the cost of the AdBlue to the diesel running cost so it's not overlooked.

I have updated my calc sheet for today's fuel prices in my area and used 18 US MPG (17.07 lts/100km) as a benchmark to see how that compares to diesel.
Diesel is still ahead.

Don't worry about this being metric. Just observe that diesel is costing me less to run and is getting me further down the road per tank. For my usage, diesel is the better option. If I increase the distance travelled per year (15,000km) the running cost tips even more in favour of diesel.

And that's been the general (and simplified) consensus on the petrol v diesel coin toss:
- Low annual usage and weights, or hate the necessary diesel emissions tech - pick petrol.
- High usage, need longer range or higher torque for towing then pick diesel.

These numbers are non-towing. When towing I get about 16.8 litres/100 km. Anecdotally I believe the petrol runs around 22-25 litres/100km towing (10.7 to 9.4 US MPG).

View attachment 7887502

I first built this calc sheet in 2022 to help me choose diesel over petrol. It's tracking very close to my actual 12 month stats (below) for 16,443km travelled.

View attachment 7887504

Well said. For sake of completeness, there might be other groups of drivers who can experience issues with the diesel: When driving only short distances, the diesel particulate filter has to be run free once or twice a month, which may be annoying (I have observed this with my diesel GC, dealer confirmed it, that is why I ultimately opted for the petrol). Regeneration of the diesel particulate filter generates noise, but above all high heat, which should be avoided while standing in high dry grass (read this in forums). Extreme overlanders or drivers in some countries might find it difficult to source AdBlue when needed, and the B58 engine might tolerate bad petrol better than the B57 bad diesel (according to forums). More comfort-oriented drivers may prefer the petrol over the diesel (I find it less noisy and better suited on-road); at the same time more off-road oriented drivers told me they do not miss the additional diesel torque (unless towing heavy loads). In essence, decision very much depends on the individual use case (for long-distance towing, I would have bought the diesel). It's a pity that in some markets buyers can't choose, especially as the diesel engine is usually more expensive.

 

[Clark Kent]

Well said. For sake of completeness, there might be other groups of drivers who can experience issues with the diesel: When driving only short distances, the diesel particulate filter has to be run free once or twice a month, which may be annoying (I have observed this with my diesel GC, dealer confirmed it, that is why I ultimately opted for the petrol). Regeneration of the diesel particulate filter generates noise, but above all high heat, which should be avoided while standing in high dry grass (read this in forums). Extreme overlanders or drivers in some countries might find it difficult to source AdBlue when needed, and the B58 engine might tolerate bad petrol better than the B57 bad diesel (according to forums). More comfort-oriented drivers may prefer the petrol over the diesel (I find it less noisy and better suited on-road); at the same time more off-road oriented drivers told me they do not miss the additional diesel torque (unless towing heavy loads). In essence, decision very much depends on the individual use case (for long-distance towing, I would have bought the diesel). It's a pity that in some markets buyers can't choose, especially as the diesel engine is usually more expensive.

All good points @Emil thank you.

It's an eyes wide open decision, but only necessary where there is a market choice.
I think @Logsplitter and @Matt P are probably two of our more intrepid travellers that have journeyed to less developed areas and my recollection is they both chose petrol engines for the reasons you say. @globalgregors is another wandering nomad but I cannot recall if he has diesel or petrol.

I was really only commenting around the running cost factor, following the previous post. My summary was simplified along that line.

Carriage of extra fuel is a consideration. Given a choice most would prefer to carry diesel over petrol based on flammability. Of course there is now options for auxiliary diesel tanks with a petrol aux tank reportedly on the way via LRA.

Winter diesel can be tricky.

The list goes on for each fuel type.

It's not a simple decision, but it is an individual decision.

 

[Zimm]

The way the pricing structure and fuel convenience is in the us, unless you frequently load the f350 up, diesel is a waste.

 

[Shopkeep]

Do diesel engines last longer than petrol/gas? Some of the arguments supporting this theory suggest the components on diesel engines are more robust than an equivalent petrol, this theory is reflected in the version of ZF gearbox chosen for the Grenadier diesel?

 

[Emil]

Do diesel engines last longer than petrol/gas? Some of the arguments supporting this theory suggest the components on diesel engines are more robust than an equivalent petrol, this theory is reflected in the version of ZF gearbox chosen for the Grenadier diesel?

Oh, and the diesel engine is more heavy resulting in lower payload…

 

[landmannnn]

Do diesel engines last longer than petrol/gas? Some of the arguments supporting this theory suggest the components on diesel engines are more robust than an equivalent petrol, this theory is reflected in the version of ZF gearbox chosen for the Grenadier diesel?

Historically yes. Diesel engines used to have maximum power curves that meant anything above 3,500 rpm was pointless, petrol/gas engines revved to 6,500 rpm plus so tended to wear more.

Nowadays I suspect that provided servicing is kept up to date that there isn't much in it.

 

[globalgregors]

All good points @Emil thank you.

It's an eyes wide open decision, but only necessary where there is a market choice.
I think @Logsplitter and @Matt P are probably two of our more intrepid travellers that have journeyed to less developed areas and my recollection is they both chose petrol engines for the reasons you say. @globalgregors is another wandering nomad but I cannot recall if he has diesel or petrol.

I was really only commenting around the running cost factor, following the previous post. My summary was simplified along that line.

Carriage of extra fuel is a consideration. Given a choice most would prefer to carry diesel over petrol based on flammability. Of course there is now options for auxiliary diesel tanks with a petrol aux tank reportedly on the way via LRA.

Winter diesel can be tricky.

The list goes on for each fuel type.

It's not a simple decision, but it is an individual decision.

Diesel all the way for us.

Closest thing to a problem sourcing Ad Blue so far was in Villahermosa, MEX where only one of the six AutoZones around town carried stock (next day delivery for all the others). I habitually check and it’s almost always found as shelf stock in auto stores wherever if not actually available at gas stations or the pump.

Wasn’t sure about Belize/Guatemala so I popped a spare refill in the back before crossing the border which will see us through to Colombia.

Much prefer carrying & handling diesel in remote areas, and prefer the torque characteristics/lower revs of this engine in high ambient temperature slippery conditions such as desert sand or tropical mud.

Offroad use preference should depend on whether one is rock crawling (vehicle usually lighter) or in expedition use (heavier), latter obviously favours the diesel.

Never had any real issues with winter diesel. It’s has to be very cold before it’s an issue and you can use anti-geling additives as a stop-gap. Normally wherever one is that’s properly cold (Russia, Canada) I’d say a block heater is more of a concern.

Major argument for diesel for remote overlanding - to really obscure spots - is availability. With a bit of fast talk you can source a top-up off any passing truck. In somewhere like Iran, Siberia or Central Asia this can be WAY easier than limping to a gas station and will usually play out for a few bucks and a soda, cup of tea or a chocolate bar etc.

 

[clintolsen]

I went to the local dealer in Oregon today and test drove a couple Trialmasters. The first was factory. The second was modded with slightly larger tires, lift, and Fox steering. See the truck in the background there.

I commented to the dealer about diesel, and he says that's one of the most common questions they get (!?!). I told him if it had that it would be a "shut up and take my money" situation. I admit the throttle response and power of the B58 version was great. We drove my son's 2017 X5 Xdrive35d in heavy stop-and-go traffic and achieved ~24mpg for this round trip to the dealer.
The more videos I watch, the more of them say economy tends to gravitate to 15mpg with mixed driving, closer to 13 offroad.

I'm also not very hopeful about a mild hybrid if such a version emerges. https://www.youtube.com/@TrailRecon has the new 2024 Land Cruiser (Prado) and despite using ECO mode with the new i-FORCE MAX he's also gravitating to 15mpg . With that kind of economy you might as well go back to a V8.

 

[Jiman01]

I daily drive mine on stock tires (KO2)/suspension, no roof rack (yet) and get between 16-18mpg….which is about the same as I got in my last few vehicles (JK Wrangler, Ford Raptor, and New Defender).

I calculate using my trip computer, not the infotainment avg. …although TBH the last few times the infotainment numbers were in the ballpark.

For my use case as a daily, with towing and off-road excursions being the exceptions, if I had a choice I still think I’d go gas/petrol. Especially after I read that diesels (modern?) don’t like to be run for short trips.

 

[DenisM]

View: https://youtu.be/qae9bhymH50?si=JJ1caht7KWfbhZB4

Does this mean it's possible that the B57 Grenadier will finally be able to be sold in the US, or can the States over-ride the FedEPA and introduce their own emissions?

 

[ADVAW8S]

View: https://youtu.be/qae9bhymH50?si=JJ1caht7KWfbhZB4

Does this mean it's possible that the B57 Grenadier will finally be able to be sold in the US, or can the States over-ride the FedEPA and introduce their own emissions?

This is a tough answer because they say that want to give states rights to make choices. The B57 wasn't sold here because BMW didn't want to do or pay for EPA testing. If that is no longer required, then the engine could come. The issue is if you are giving the states the rights to handle environmental issues, you could see states make different rules or requirements.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

This is a tough answer because they say that want to give states rights to make choices. The B57 wasn't sold here because BMW didn't want to do or pay for EPA testing. If that is no longer required, then the engine could come. The issue is if you are giving the states the rights to handle environmental issues, you could see states make different rules or requirements.

We still have the California problem - they set their rules, and that tends to swing manufacturers as a “forward indicator” of what’s going to happen everywhere else

 

[anand]

Does this mean it's possible that the B57 Grenadier will finally be able to be sold in the US, or can the States over-ride the FedEPA and introduce their own emissions?

Knowing that all this could (and likely will) change again in the same amount of time it would take to ramp up the supply and logistics and design phases to bring those engines to the US is unlikely to sway BMW to bring the B57 back to the US; which would be required for Ineos to offer it

 

[LabRat]

Unless the changes are made permanent, I doubt we'll see a diesel here in the US, but a guy can dream.

 

[scottg]

Diesel all the way for us.

Closest thing to a problem sourcing Ad Blue so far was in Villahermosa, MEX where only one of the six AutoZones around town carried stock (next day delivery for all the others). I habitually check and it’s almost always found as shelf stock in auto stores wherever if not actually available at gas stations or the pump.

Wasn’t sure about Belize/Guatemala so I popped a spare refill in the back before crossing the border which will see us through to Colombia.

Much prefer carrying & handling diesel in remote areas, and prefer the torque characteristics/lower revs of this engine in high ambient temperature slippery conditions such as desert sand or tropical mud.

Offroad use preference should depend on whether one is rock crawling (vehicle usually lighter) or in expedition use (heavier), latter obviously favours the diesel.

Never had any real issues with winter diesel. It’s has to be very cold before it’s an issue and you can use anti-geling additives as a stop-gap. Normally wherever one is that’s properly cold (Russia, Canada) I’d say a block heater is more of a concern.

Major argument for diesel for remote overlanding - to really obscure spots - is availability. With a bit of fast talk you can source a top-up off any passing truck. In somewhere like Iran, Siberia or Central Asia this can be WAY easier than limping to a gas station and will usually play out for a few bucks and a soda, cup of tea or a chocolate bar etc.

I think this is the real decider for whether to get diesel or not, if you're in remote areas where access to good quality petrol (low sulfur) or any petrol is an issue, but diesel is everywhere, even if the quality is not 100%.

Most of us in the US, UK, most industrialized countries (that aren't Australia?) don't have an issue finding good quality petrol (well, Australia has access to good petrol, but out in the boonies on long overlands, can you get good petrol, or are there other reasons for using diesel in those situations?).


I'm no expert on diesel versus petrol, so don't shoot me.

 

[globalgregors]

I think this is the real decider for whether to get diesel or not, if you're in remote areas where access to good quality petrol (low sulfur) or any petrol is an issue, but diesel is everywhere, even if the quality is not 100%.

Most of us in the US, UK, most industrialized countries (that aren't Australia?) don't have an issue finding good quality petrol (well, Australia has access to good petrol, but out in the boonies on long overlands, can you get good petrol, or are there other reasons for using diesel in those situations?).


I'm no expert on diesel versus petrol, so don't shoot me.

No, all good - it’s a question worth asking:

• Diesel can be carried and handled more safely. In Australia it is permitted (and safe) to be carried inside the loadspace. Refueling by hand, where spills can easily occur, is generally regarded (fairly or not) as safer with diesel.
• Petrol shouldn’t be carried inside the passenger/loadspace compartment. Only outside in an approved container.
• Diesel offers a 20-35% range advantage over petrol for a similar engine/tank capacity.
• Diesel generates more torque at a lower rpm. The engine is working less for a given load which is a benefit for towing, for operating temperatures (and therefore performance in high ambient temperature and sand), and for fuel consumption (see above).
• Diesels have a reduced number of hv electrical components, with compression ignition they tend to hold out a bit longer in deep water. They will obviously still hydrolock if the intake is swamped!
• Diesel is widely available on stations (ranches) and mining operations in remote Australia, and world wide trucks can be an emergency source if required. These days it’s rarely an issue finding petrol though!
• Diesel used to be somewhat cheaper (less so now).

So mostly it’s a matter of practicality and availability rather than any problem with petrol quality.

(Downsides: they are heavier, more expensive, crippled by emissions systems requirements, more polluting, usually noisier, and less sporting in nature)

 

[globalgregors]

Worth mentioning maybe that the sulfur consideration is specific to diesel, and is an issue resulting from emissions systems.

I guess the petrol equivalent is octane rating, but I gather that’s not an issue with the Gren.

The other ‘quality’ issue is contamination with water or foreign bodies or microorganisms. This applies both to petrol and diesel, and is usually a product of poor storage and handling practices (combined with climate).

 

[NQ94]

I think this is the real decider for whether to get diesel or not, if you're in remote areas where access to good quality petrol (low sulfur) or any petrol is an issue, but diesel is everywhere, even if the quality is not 100%.

Most of us in the US, UK, most industrialized countries (that aren't Australia?) don't have an issue finding good quality petrol (well, Australia has access to good petrol, but out in the boonies on long overlands, can you get good petrol, or are there other reasons for using diesel in those situations?).


I'm no expert on diesel versus petrol, so don't shoot me.

Petrol is generally available everywhere there is diesel available in Australia. Some remote communities in the north use Opal a low aromatic petrol to reduce sniffing or sometimes avgas is used. At some very popular remote destinations and events petrol is normally plentiful but there can be issues with queing or sold out diesel. I have been caught out with sold out diesel a few times.
Petrol and diesels are now loaded with that much electronics that they suffer just as much as each other in regards to electrical and poor electrical connections from vibration and water ingress over time. The biggest weak point on modern diesels are the emission systems, these tend to give the most issues and are costly to repair compared to petrol engines. Fuel contamination after wet season flooding and poor storage of diesel and contaminated bulk tanks left to run very low are common causes of problems especially for the newer common rail engines.

 

[Logsplitter]

I have to chirp in here. You can add an octane booster to low octane petrol if you have no choice but to purchase that. I don’t know about Australia or South America but in Africa and Asia where I have travelled extensively, there are motorbikes everywhere inc remote areas , therefore there is petrol always available. As said there are also Trucks everywhere so diesel available You can go around the world with both a petrol engine and a diesel engine, there are numerous examples of people doing so. Like as already has been said you have to be aware of high sulphur diesel with modern engines and low octane petrol in petrol engines. If you are aware you can deal with it. I carry a “MrFunnel” fuel filter funnel with me and all petrol going into my tank that doesn’t come directly from a forecourt petrol pump goes through the filter first.
Happy travels everyone.

 

[globalgregors]

I have to chirp in here. You can add an octane booster to low octane petrol if you have no choice but to purchase that. I don’t know about Australia or South America but in Africa and Asia where I have travelled extensively, there are motorbikes everywhere inc remote areas , therefore there is petrol always available. As said there are also Trucks everywhere so diesel available You can go around the world with both a petrol engine and a diesel engine, there are numerous examples of people doing so. Like as already has been said you have to be aware of high sulphur diesel with modern engines and low octane petrol in petrol engines. If you are aware you can deal with it. I carry a “MrFunnel” fuel filter funnel with me and all petrol going into my tank that doesn’t come directly from a forecourt petrol pump goes through the filter first.
Happy travels everyone.

Totally true, that was very doctrinaire wasn’t it? The internet so quickly boils down to a debate about specifications.
You are spot on @Logsplitter - one’s preference is only that and honestly it’s irrelevant once you’ve committed either way.

Is this a good time for a little essay on adventure travel and dwelling in the actionless action?