Coil Springs (specs v build)

[anand]

Oooof your VAT….

 

[Logsplitter]

Oooof your VAT….

I know . 20% on everything

 

[Tom109]

Ouch.

 

[TelRidan]

Anyone seen these yet?

Eibach Pro 4" Lift Springs for INEOS Grenadier and Quartermaster​

Wondering what it means for drive shaft angles, etc. Wouldn't mind running a 4" lift, but concerned it would require significant custom work to implement...

 

[Krabby]

Ouch.

 

[Tom D]

I’ve just been quoted this for the OEM black marked springs. This would aline with what @anand was saying price wise for the black marked springs.

Hi Dave

To supply and fit “black” OEM spring and to carry out a wheel alignment after

£1841.88+Vat £2210.26 inc vat

Kind Regards

Jesus!
I got a price on the springs, they were only around 100-150 each, and I got our local garage to fit them as my brothers lift was out of action, they only charged 3 hours labour I think...
Edit as you know I went for the +30mm ones in the end. But I asked the dealer for a price on the blacks.

 

[Logsplitter]

It’s the OEM black marked springs that are pricey.

 

[anand]

It’s the OEM black marked springs that are pricey.

Correct, from looking into the lighter options prior, those are all fairly inexpensive; however the upper 2 (or 3?) spring rates are 4x the price

 

[Tom D]

I must have been misquoted..
Another reason to go for the+30mm....

 

[Tom109]

Still Ouch crazy for the OEM black. Old Man Emu didn’t have this price gradient.

 

[Clark Kent]

It’s the OEM black marked springs that are pricey.

That's hard to justify. Are they made by Apple?

Are you following this thread on the Eibach 500# and 1000# springs @Logsplitter? Those guys are going through the same decision process.

According to the Eibach installation document here the 500# (227kg) rear springs give a 1.4" (35mm) rear lift under a 500# load. If most of your weight is over the rear axle (tank plus rear fitout) and you think your tare/unladen weight gain will approach or exceed 227kg at the rear then the angle change at the front driveshaft will be negligible due to rear spring squat. If you're concerned about it just keep the aux tank full as often as possible which will add another 50kg of fuel but you'll take a small hit on fuel consumption and tyre wear carrying the extra weight around.

 

[Michael H.]

That's hard to justify. Are they made by Apple?

Are you following this thread on the Eibach 500# and 1000# springs @Logsplitter? Those guys are going through the same decision process.

According to the Eibach installation document here the 500# (227kg) rear springs give a 1.4" (35mm) rear lift under a 500# load. If most of your weight is over the rear axle (tank plus rear fitout) and you think your tare/unladen weight gain will approach or exceed 227kg at the rear then the angle change at the front driveshaft will be negligible due to rear spring squat. If you're concerned about it just keep the aux tank full as often as possible which will add another 50kg of fuel but you'll take a small hit on fuel consumption and tyre wear carrying the extra weight around.

Hi @Clark Kent. I’m hoping you can help me. I’m not sure what my original axle weights would have been. My Trialmaster Utility Wagon (ordered with winch and sliders) came with red front springs (1417-1470kg) and green rear springs (1299-1355kg). My typical axle weights (the way my vehicle is most commonly loaded) are 1580kg at the front and 1720kg at the rear. So looking at the INEOS chart, does that mean I could go with black springs?

And is there a way of finding out the recommended axle loads for the various aftermarket Eibach springs?

 

[Tom109]

Those guys at 4wd247 just put a footie ball inside their rear springs. I’m putting that one in my back pocket…

 

[Clark Kent]

Hi @Clark Kent. I’m hoping you can help me. I’m not sure what my original axle weights would have been. My Trialmaster Utility Wagon (ordered with winch and sliders) came with red front springs (1417-1470kg) and green rear springs (1299-1355kg). My typical axle weights (the way my vehicle is most commonly loaded) are 1580kg at the front and 1720kg at the rear. So looking at the INEOS chart, does that mean I could go with black springs?

And is there a way of finding out the recommended axle loads for the various aftermarket Eibach springs?

Hi @Michael H. I missed this question. My apologies

Versus the factory delivered red and green springs you are up 110kg on the front (1470 > 1580kg) and 365kg on the rear (1355 > 1720kg). I'm assuming you're keen to stay with standard height springs hence the reference to the factory options chart. With uprated springs you will still see a small gain in ride height because there is less sag.

Front
At your stated 1580kg you could go to black springs on the front (black front: 1576 - 1629kg). That would put you at the bottom of the black spring weight rating so it could be a stiff ride but the next spring down (purple front: 1523 - 1576kg) would be operating at the maximum weight rating so would not perform well.

Rear
At your stated 1720kg rear axle weight you're 197kg above the rating of the factory black springs (black rear: 1467 - 1523kg). In the Eibach Pro line I cannot see any HD springs that don't have a lift. The 0" lift springs don't say if they're a HD spring so they're an unknown.
The closest catalog match is the Eibach Pro 500lb (227kg) lift kit PN E30-34-001-06-02 with HD rear springs PN F31-34-001-06-RA. They have a 1.6" (41mm) lift at 400lbs (182kg) and a 1.4" (36mm) lift at 500lbs (227kg). At +197kg (433lb) those springs would give about a 1.5" (38mm) rear lift. This is similar to Logsplitter's situation above. 38mm at the rear axle is not a lot of angle change at the front driveshaft but it's still a change, plus they're aftermarket springs so your driveline warranty will probably be affected should you need to make a (driveshaft) claim.

Outlets like XHQ, GrenX, etc. offer the pro lift HD kits but it would be worth contacting them about a standard height HD spring in your weight range.

The installation docs for the 500lb and 1000lb kits provide some info on added weight versus lift. I haven't seen anything on recommended axle loads. You could send an enquiry to Eibach Australia here

Airbags, maybe?

Airbagman is very clear that helper airbags do more than just reset ride height when loaded up. They are designed to work with the existing suspension to carry weight every day.

If aftermarket lift springs are out and you cannot find a standard height HD spring then airbags might solve your problem. I would have a chat to airbagman and get their thoughts on a high pressure airbag kit for your typical weight. If you only inflate the airbags to support the weight and reset your ride height back to standard then your warranty < might > be ok for driveshaft angle issues.

Tazzieman has just posted these airbags tips. Good stuff.

There are a few experienced suspension guys on here and hopefully someone will jump in with their suggestions.

 

[Michael H.]

Hi @Michael H. I missed this question. My apologies

Versus the factory delivered red and green springs you are up 110kg on the front (1470 > 1580kg) and 365kg on the rear (1355 > 1720kg). I'm assuming you're keen to stay with standard height springs hence the reference to the factory options chart. With uprated springs you will still see a small gain in ride height because there is less sag.

Front
At your stated 1580kg you could go to black springs on the front (black front: 1576 - 1629kg). That would put you at the bottom of the black spring weight rating so it could be a stiff ride but the next spring down (purple front: 1523 - 1576kg) would be operating at the maximum weight rating so would not perform well.

Rear
At your stated 1720kg rear axle weight you're 197kg above the rating of the factory black springs (black rear: 1467 - 1523kg). In the Eibach Pro line I cannot see any HD springs that don't have a lift. The 0" lift springs don't say if they're a HD spring so they're an unknown.
The closest catalog match is the Eibach Pro 500lb (227kg) lift kit PN E30-34-001-06-02 with HD rear springs PN F31-34-001-06-RA. They have a 1.6" (41mm) lift at 400lbs (182kg) and a 1.4" (36mm) lift at 500lbs (227kg). At +197kg (433lb) those springs would give about a 1.5" (38mm) rear lift. This is similar to Logsplitter's situation above. 38mm at the rear axle is not a lot of angle change at the front driveshaft but it's still a change, plus they're aftermarket springs so your driveline warranty will probably be affected should you need to make a (driveshaft) claim.

Outlets like XHQ, GrenX, etc. offer the pro lift HD kits but it would be worth contacting them about a standard height HD spring in your weight range.

The installation docs for the 500lb and 1000lb kits provide some info on added weight versus lift. I haven't seen anything on recommended axle loads. You could send an enquiry to Eibach Australia here

View attachment 7901734
View attachment 7901733

Airbags, maybe?

Airbagman is very clear that helper airbags do more than just reset ride height when loaded up. They are designed to work with the existing suspension to carry weight every day.
View attachment 7901732
If aftermarket lift springs are out and you cannot find a standard height HD spring then airbags might solve your problem. I would have a chat to airbagman and get their thoughts on a high pressure airbag kit for your typical weight. If you only inflate the airbags to support the weight and reset your ride height back to standard then your warranty < might > be ok for driveshaft angle issues.

Tazzieman has just posted these airbags tips. Good stuff.

There are a few experienced suspension guys on here and hopefully someone will jump in with their suggestions.

Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I’m not really interested in airbags, as my axle loads are pretty constant, so regarding the factory springs …

With the front, I’ve been thinking about the black springs being at the bottom of their weight rating. Bearing in mind that I won’t be adding any more weight up front, I was wondering whether the purple springs might be a better option. Even though they'd be at the top of their weight rating, I’m guessing they would still perform better than my (currently overloaded) red ones?

I could then go with black springs on the rear, and while still not matching the axle weight, I’m guessing they would still perform better than my (currently overloaded) green ones?

As you can probably tell, I know very little about suspension, so please let me know if my thinking is flawed.

I’ll also contact Eibach Australia re axle loads for their HD springs.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[parb]

I really like this thread. Thank you for sharing, I'm very much thinking about these things.

 

[Quartermaster]

View attachment 7895581

Are you all sure, that this table is meant to be used bs end consumers and the displayed "weight" is the total axle load measured on a weigh bridge? I think, the "weights" are corresponding to the sprung weight only (weigh bridge axle load minus unsprung weight). Otherwise, my Quartermaster has to weak springs from factory ....
Does anyone know the unsprung weight of our axles?

 

[parb]

I weighed my car today. I didn't weigh each axle, just the whole car.

So my car weighs 7,660lbs when setup as my daily driver.
That is with me in the car and a full tank of gas.

I have full underbody protection (6mm aluminium), roof rack, 270 awning, drawer full of gear etc. I have the gp factor bull bar and hidden winch.

I updated my front springs to the red springs when I installed the winch upon recommendation from my dealer.

As it sits I think the car drives well. If I fill it up with camping great I this it starts to drive poorly with body sway etc.

What size/type springs should I consider? I'm using stock rear springs for a field master with lockers. Or should i consider airbags? Or airbags + new springs?

Id love for some collective wisdom! Thanks all!

 

[Clark Kent]

Are you all sure, that this table is meant to be used bs end consumers and the displayed "weight" is the total axle load measured on a weigh bridge? I think, the "weights" are corresponding to the sprung weight only (weigh bridge axle load minus unsprung weight). Otherwise, my Quartermaster has to weak springs from factory ....
Does anyone know the unsprung weight of our axles?

That's a good question @Quartermaster.

I'd guess this was pulled out of a presentation file to show that someone has thought about matching springs to kerb weights based on customer configuration. It's a useful document but it's more education than engineering as a desktop guide for those who want to DIY and upgrade but avoid a lift. Many/most will end up at black springs and probably still need more weight capacity hence the Eibach Pro line.
An actual suspension shop wouldn't bother with this. They would select new springs based on actual or planned kerb weight then add the payload and the customer's intended use and match some suitable shocks to keep the springs under control.

I agree it's likely to be sprung weight given the greatest weight variation occurs above the suspension. There's a lesser difference in unsprung weight according to wheels, tyres, and +/- diff locks.

For axle unsprung weights, do you mean the weight of each axle with wheels fitted or the axle weight rating? For Australian delivered vehicles the front axle weight rating is 1667kg and the rear is 2150kg.

 

[Clark Kent]

Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I’m not really interested in airbags, as my axle loads are pretty constant, so regarding the factory springs …

With the front, I’ve been thinking about the black springs being at the bottom of their weight rating. Bearing in mind that I won’t be adding any more weight up front, I was wondering whether the purple springs might be a better option. Even though they'd be at the top of their weight rating, I’m guessing they would still perform better than my (currently overloaded) red ones?

I could then go with black springs on the rear, and while still not matching the axle weight, I’m guessing they would still perform better than my (currently overloaded) green ones?

As you can probably tell, I know very little about suspension, so please let me know if my thinking is flawed.

I’ll also contact Eibach Australia re axle loads for their HD springs.

Thanks again for your help.

Happy to contribute. Time will tell if I was helping you to solve a problem or just spend money .

There is nothing wrong with your thinking. You're on the fence between purple and black at the front. You don't want to do this exercise twice so if there is any chance you might gain more weight over the front then go black now. Is there no RTT in your future? A stronger (heavier) front bar maybe?
Yes, purple will be better than red up front and black will be better than green at the back. I feel like someone will have pulled out a set of purple and green springs already. Ask around. You might get lucky.

There is some pricing on black springs further back in the thread. Quite an investment. My concern would be on a bang-for-buck basis you might be disappointed in the blacks because you're already heavy. Knowing your views on airbags for daily use, you could go to black springs and keep the standard height and add airbags for higher trip weights if required. Just a thought.