Anyone else considering returning their Ineos Grenadier?

[evomind]

I think people should buy whatever they want.
Even you.

 

[James]

Totally agreed.

What’s interesting to me is that on one hand people complain about the cost of the Grenadier already being way too high, and then on the other hand, they’re interested in all of the things that clearly would increase the cost (and likely far beyond what it is today). The problem is one that I also often see at work when you have to convince an unskilled executive why they should invest in very expensive (and critical) building components that are typically out of sight (for example chillers, boilers, air handling units, generators, etc…) instead of the more aesthetic items (like paint, furniture, mill work, etc…). In the case of the Grenadier, I think many of us would rather the lions share of the cost of the vehicle be put into the mechanical components, than the aesthetics/comfort/luxury items.

I’m curious, for those that want and can afford a luxury version of the Grenadier, then why not consider buying the G-wagon? I feel like that’s a fairly natural luxury trim level of the grennie, while keeping the look and feel of a classic boxy 4x4.

I think the g-wagen and any possible ineos luxury offering would probably compete. You might not know quite how pricey the Mercs get here - the g63amg is $440,000 in australia, and they only sell one ‘cheaper’ one, I think in the 300s. So in the US its probably more likely a comparison. (Trialmaster around 125,000 fyi)
but personally I really hope that no version of the ineos gets associated with dealers, pimps and insecure wealth…

and I totally agree with your other sentiments; thank you for sharing them. Its a point well made that the cost is sunk into getting the invisible basics right. Like having solid road systems, bridges, courts and fairly managed electoral processes, the ‘boring’ stuff is essential, and very easy to take for granted, until they’re not there any more. My guess is the direct to market grenadier model (everywhere except usa) is part of how they’re giving such excellent ‘bones’ at low volume. Theres 2 less profit taking steps in the chain this way.

 

[Roach]

Totally disgree that it’s not a great long distance tourer, I am currently on a two week trip that has already had several 1000km days and it has been superbly comfortable and confident whatever the road surface, highway, narrow country roads gravel roads, gravel roads with corrugations (washboard) beach, awesome in all of them, I would venture to say the best touring vehicle I have ever owned. I haven’t towed with it yet but plenty have and have reported that it is a supurb tow vehicle. The only bit I agree with you on is that It’s not a brilliant around town car, its wide for parking spots, it’s turning circle is wide and you have to work hard to manoeuvre it in tight spaces and it is too tall for most underground car parking, particularly with roof rack on. That’s why we have a 1.5litre small car for town driving and the Grenadier is for road trips and adventures.

Agree, for me to say it's not 'great' was subjective and from a personal POV. As an example, my wife drives a Cayenne diesel that we also use for towing (about 5000lbs) and still get 18+mpg at 70mph. Its fuel efficient with a 700mi range, 38+ mpg highway (as high as 45mpg going to Yosemite) and 28+mpg around town. On the open highway it provides incredible handling, that germanic braking, very capable in snow and wet conditions, quiet and likely one of the most reliable cars we have ever owned.... but .... not a "great" overlander.

Also, I don't drive off-road in order to get from one town to the next like others on this forum

 

[Jiman01]

That is so funny
Americans drive far more than the rest of the world do???????
It's a shame they don't travel more, then they would stop believing this kind of crap.
Then again maybe it is a good thing
Some americans drive a lot, some americans don't own cars, some Americans (11.5% or 39.2 Million) live below the poverty line so probably don't drive a lot.
I could probably make the same generalisations about most 1st world countries.
Well except the poverty bit.
I think the type of vehicles is based more on the types of roads rather than some nonsensical statements.
Europe has lots of small, narrow, crowded roads so they tend to have smaller vehicles.
US has long, straight, smooth roads, with some high altitude winding roads, so totally different vehicle requirements.
As Australia is physically the same size as mainland USA, we also have long straight, winding, high elevation roads, but rarely smooth.
We also don't tend to like soft suspension or body roll.
Reliability and robustness is significantly more important than fancy gadgets.

Of all things to get triggered by…like he called your dog ugly or something.…relax.

I don‘t have an any opinion either way, so I did a search. Seems Americans do drive more than most, if not all other countries, on average. If you’re so sure of your facts, post your data, because you sure did jump on a member here for making his comment...quite harshly IMHO.

This is off the first page of my search:

Americans Drive More than Anyone Else in the World, And Are Dying For It - The Car Crash Detective

A comparison of annual mileage driven, road fatalities, and per capita death rates across Norway, Sweden, the UK, and the US, with top safety recommendations for avoiding and surviving car crashes.

www.thecarcrashdetective.com

Which Nations Drive, Fly, Cycle And Take The Train Most? - Shrink That Footprint

shrinkthatfootprint.com

Fact file: Americans drive the most

Americans drive a whole lot more than most other people in the world. That means more noise, more pollution and more deaths. Maybe it's time to rethink how we get around.

frontiergroup.org

Transportation – International Comparisons

internationalcomparisons.org

Average Miles Driven per Year in the USA | Policy Advice

Did you know that the average miles driven per year by drivers in the US are at an all-time high? Buckle up, we prepared more interesting stats!

policyadvice.net

 

[DaveB]

It’s pretty common for me to hit 100k every 3 years.
A western bird swing is 6-8,000 miles.
We have the infrastructure and the distances to cover.
Our fuel is cheap by comparison.

It is what it is.
No reason to be hostile about it.

Just read the thread contributions from American outdoorsmen on the site.
lots of highway time, limited unimproved road time. Preference toward comfort.

There are 340 million people in USA and about 1,000 on here. (Total guess)
Some of them have commented how far they drive and yours would be pretty much at the top of that list.
That is a very small sample to be generalising that Americans drive more than anywhere else in the world.
From your description it sounds like you would be better off getting a Landrover, Landcruiser, or anyone of 100 yank tanks, rather than trying to redesign the Grenadier.

 

[AnD3rew]

I think people should buy whatever they want.
Even you.

Totally agree, some people clearly want something other than a Grenadier, and they should do that

 

[Sekurt]

My perspective from last Saturday when I drove the Gren on tarmac for the first time. Test drive was close to an hour around town, rural roads, freeway, and parking lots with speed bumps. I currently drive a 2015 4runner that’s lifted on 33’s with allot of weight to include a second fuel tank. The 4runner weighs close to 6k as it is setup. The Gren excels in every way over the 4runner. Better visibility (in my opinion), better seating position, way better power, smoother operation, and felt way lighter in operation than my pig of a 4runner. As far as seating goes, once I set the drivers seat it never moves again unless some service tech relocates it. Save an occasional up or down adjustment I just don’t move it. Having electric seats is absolutely meaningless to me. The Gren I drove was a trialmaster fully loaded minus leather, just as I ordered, so it was a nice surprise. I’ve had Mercedes G in the past and wouldn’t ever want all the electronic nonsense in a comparable vehicle ever again. I tend to hold onto vehicles for many years, 8-10 years on average. I may have more than one at a time, currently 3, however am planning on downsizing to 2 after my test drive. I really liked how the Trailmaster drove and loved the simplicity. My $.05 with inflation

 

[bemax]

Totally agreed.

What’s interesting to me is that on one hand people complain about the cost of the Grenadier already being way too high, and then on the other hand, they’re interested in all of the things that clearly would increase the cost (and likely far beyond what it is today). The problem is one that I also often see at work when you have to convince an unskilled executive why they should invest in very expensive (and critical) building components that are typically out of sight (for example chillers, boilers, air handling units, generators, etc…) instead of the more aesthetic items (like paint, furniture, mill work, etc…). In the case of the Grenadier, I think many of us would rather the lions share of the cost of the vehicle be put into the mechanical components, than the aesthetics/comfort/luxury items.

I’m curious, for those that want and can afford a luxury version of the Grenadier, then why not consider buying the G-wagon? I feel like that’s a fairly natural luxury trim level of the grennie, while keeping the look and feel of a classic boxy 4x4.

Or a nice pre owned Range Rover V8!

 

[klarie]

Of all things to get triggered by…like he called your dog ugly or something.…relax.

I don‘t have an any opinion either way, so I did a search. Seems Americans do drive more than most, if not all other countries, on average. If you’re so sure of your facts, post your data, because you sure did jump on a member here for making his comment...quite harshly IMHO.

This is off the first page of my search:

Americans Drive More than Anyone Else in the World, And Are Dying For It - The Car Crash Detective

A comparison of annual mileage driven, road fatalities, and per capita death rates across Norway, Sweden, the UK, and the US, with top safety recommendations for avoiding and surviving car crashes.

www.thecarcrashdetective.com

Which Nations Drive, Fly, Cycle And Take The Train Most? - Shrink That Footprint

shrinkthatfootprint.com

Fact file: Americans drive the most

Americans drive a whole lot more than most other people in the world. That means more noise, more pollution and more deaths. Maybe it's time to rethink how we get around.

frontiergroup.org

Transportation – International Comparisons

internationalcomparisons.org

Average Miles Driven per Year in the USA | Policy Advice

Did you know that the average miles driven per year by drivers in the US are at an all-time high? Buckle up, we prepared more interesting stats!

policyadvice.net

to me the entire survey - and what these links suggest contains not all but a lot of bullshit.
The US is in large parts rural - and very low density populated. So quite a long distance.
And on many routes a bus makes no sense, neither rail.
For a lot of distances there is aircraft the only sensible fast transportation.
That is for many regions a fact.
So now for the areas that are highly populated (New York, Washington DC, San Francisco, and LA - San Diego Region in example)
There are indeed comparably few public transport solutions and the network is far lower in density and ration compared to e.g. Underground Network in London. / Paris etc. There is most certainly room for improvement.
But there is another one. Systems must be short schedule, fast, reasonably cost, reliable, interconnectable to other transport systems, and safe at any time. Last used ground based public transport in February 2020. SBB between Lausanne and Geneva Airport. Never since. Only public transport I use is aircraft. Reason is I am quite often start early flight out and late flight in. .. the safety and security e.g. in FFM has deteriorated. (pickpockets and drug addicts) few security staff, - dirt, and low frequency plus a lot of delay because of construction zone (S6) and a lot if issues in the traffic control / signal issues and defect track switches. (Sometimes depend on the weather) or rolling dice. So instead I grab a taxi / airport shuttle service and everything else by car.
20 mls plus is not a walking distance.
The US public transport in certain urban / high populated areas can be improved for sure. But the rural area? In many areas far from feasible.

 

[255/85]

Some of the short comings will evolve out.
Like a better steering feel.

The behavior of the steering is right on par with all the other recirc ball vehicles I've ever been in. Do you consider durability and strength a shortcoming?

Better rear view camera stuff.

Man up and install your own.

Different radio stack.

I don't even begin to understand your complaint here. It's vague and subjective.

You’re not going to sell very many cars in the United States if you can’t find parity on those three items with your competitors.

What competitors? Ineos exists because there aren't any competitors to their product except maybe the 70 Series Toyota line-up.

They are cheap evolutions.
It will be interesting to see overtime how well the sales pitch that mechanical seats are necessary in the event of water intrusion when crossing rivers plays out over people that just want an electric seat.

Pretty much every American car these days has got electric seats at the first trim level.

The mechanical seats are a huge selling point for me. Maybe you should pony up and install your own electric seats in your brand new Grenadier?

It’s a body on frame solid axle vehicle. There’s only so much you can do with that. But I do think the vehicle weighs way too much.

I don't. Exactly what components would you cheapen out on?

Modern cars gotta have a whole bunch of power ports, those are cheap to add.
Every Overlander uses some form of device or tablet for their Maps. It’s silly to not be set up to accommodate that right out of the box.

Again, add your own. The vehicle is designed to make it easy to do so.

Lighted visor too.

Is this even a real requirement? Of whose? Certainly not mine.

Again, it’s just a competition thing. Now if you are volume limited to 10,000 cars a year, and you can sell every one of them without making any changes, do that. But if the volume starts to drop off, you have to fight fire with fire.

No, they don't. Ineos is a privately held company and are building vehicles to their own specifications. The owner(s) are not beholden to shareholders or boards of directors. They can afford to build a shedfull for Sir Jim and then sell off the factory at any point. Not that they want to. But they can.

I’ve retooled a lot of factories.

To build vehicles many people here don't want no doubt.

I don't believe you want to buy a Grenadier as is and are hoping to influence the design to your liking by insinuating your automotive bona fides. In fact I'm not sure what really attracts you to the vehicle. As others have stated you appear to want something completely different and there are plenty of other options out there. Good luck with your decision.

 

[AnD3rew]

to me the entire survey - and what these links suggest contains not all but a lot of bullshit.
The US is in large parts rural - and very low density populated. So quite a long distance.
And on many routes a bus makes no sense, neither rail.
For a lot of distances there is aircraft the only sensible fast transportation.
That is for many regions a fact.
So now for the areas that are highly populated (New York, Washington DC, San Francisco, and LA - San Diego Region in example)
There are indeed comparably few public transport solutions and the network is far lower in density and ration compared to e.g. Underground Network in London. / Paris etc. There is most certainly room for improvement.
But there is another one. Systems must be short schedule, fast, reasonably cost, reliable, interconnectable to other transport systems, and safe at any time. Last used ground based public transport in February 2020. SBB between Lausanne and Geneva Airport. Never since. Only public transport I use is aircraft. Reason is I am quite often start early flight out and late flight in. .. the safety and security e.g. in FFM has deteriorated. (pickpockets and drug addicts) few security staff, - dirt, and low frequency plus a lot of delay because of construction zone (S6) and a lot if issues in the traffic control / signal issues and defect track switches. (Sometimes depend on the weather) or rolling dice. So instead I grab a taxi / airport shuttle service and everything else by car.
20 mls plus is not a walking distance.
The US public transport in certain urban / high populated areas can be improved for sure. But the rural area? In many areas far from feasible.

Australia is similar, capital cities tend to have fairly decent public transport but outside of cities there is little public transport options and population density is if anything even lower so public transport isn’t economically feasible in the vast geographic majority of the country. Huge variability in US cities but I would centure that in average capital city based Australians use more public transportation than the US but outside of that would be similar. I am city based and ny Grenadier won’t get used much for a lot of the year but when it does get used it will be for trips of hundreds to thousands of kms.

 

[Krabby]

I really hope that no version of the ineos gets associated with dealers, pimps...

Pimps can be 4WD enthusiasts as well. Just saying.

 

[trobex]

The biggest issues for this vehicle will come over time as owners hit the 100K mark and reliability of parts become apparent as either very reliable or continual faulting. Early issues that can be readily fixed shouldn't pose a problem for a new upstart so long as they actually acknowledge and attend to fixes with due haste. Basically speaking, we still have to wait and see how well built this thing is. Having said that, being towed or broken down entirely as an early adopter would be infuriating!

 

[James]

Pimps can be 4WD enthusiasts as well. Just saying.

Of course you’re right. Totally.. Im just less sure if they should use the work vehicle when relaxing offroad- those AMG wheels look so good with feather boas, less so with mud!

 

[Roach]

The biggest issues for this vehicle will come over time as owners hit the 100K mark and reliability of parts become apparent as either very reliable or continual faulting. Early issues that can be readily fixed shouldn't pose a problem for a new upstart so long as they actually acknowledge and attend to fixes with due haste. Basically speaking, we still have to wait and see how well built this thing is. Having said that, being towed or broken down entirely as an early adopter would be infuriating!

Well said and on target for me.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

My oh my.
Strong opinions abound for sure.
My remarks were just a reiteration of things I read on this site.
My go-No go requirements are different. Mostly related to trailer towing and altitude power.
One thing I do agree with is a better rear view camera setup and use of the touch screen space.
It’s a big vehicle, being able to see past the rear tire is beneficial.

I’m curious why people aren’t climbing on the regular posters who desire things like front and rear view cameras that are wired and mounted over top of the rearview mirror. That’s not something that is important to me, but it certainly seems like a large enough deviation from original design concept that members might attack them.

It’s true, I do work in the automobile automation industry. Worked for GM in steering systems during the end days of steering boxes. It was easy to build a faster gear, or a more on centered feel 40 years ago.
I too do not like backfeed through Rack systems, or the inevitable morning sickness.
I’ve been on board with the Grenadier concept since it was floated on Guns on Pegs in 2018? 2019?
I flew to Edinburgh to take a drive after being overlooked by Ineos for any of their US debut events.
I returned and placed my order.

 

[Roach]

My oh my.
Strong opinions abound for sure.
My remarks were just a reiteration of things I read on this site.
My go-No go requirements are different. Mostly related to trailer towing and altitude power.
One thing I do agree with is a better rear view camera setup and use of the touch screen space.
It’s a big vehicle, being able to see past the rear tire is beneficial.

I’m curious why people aren’t climbing on the regular posters who desire things like front and rear view cameras that are wired and mounted over top of the rearview mirror. That’s not something that is important to me, but it certainly seems like a large enough deviation from original design concept that members might attack them.

It’s true, I do work in the automobile automation industry. Worked for GM in steering systems during the end days of steering boxes. It was easy to build a faster gear, or a more on centered feel 40 years ago.
I too do not like backfeed through Rack systems, or the inevitable morning sickness.
I’ve been on board with the Grenadier concept since it was floated on Guns on Pegs in 2018? 2019?
I flew to Edinburgh to take a drive after being overlooked by Ineos for any of their US debut events.
I returned and placed my order.

I'd be curious about your input on the steering but I'm going to post in a different thread as I think I'm partially responsible for hijacking this one. #249

Steering

Is this what you are looking for? Steven... In Aussie jargon "Mate: You are a 'legend'!" 👍(that's high praise indeed! 😃) Without compromising your position.... are you able to tell us how many pages the "electrical" section runs to, including wiring diagrams? ..(just so we know how much to...

www.theineosforum.com

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

I'd be curious about your input on the steering but I'm going to post in a different thread as I think I'm partially responsible for hijacking this one. #249

Steering

Is this what you are looking for? Steven... In Aussie jargon "Mate: You are a 'legend'!" 👍(that's high praise indeed! 😃) Without compromising your position.... are you able to tell us how many pages the "electrical" section runs to, including wiring diagrams? ..(just so we know how much to...

www.theineosforum.com

It’s pretty simple, backfeed will rip your thumbs off when you hit a rock with a rack system.

 

[YellowLab]

Agree, for me to say it's not 'great' was subjective and from a personal POV. As an example, my wife drives a Cayenne diesel that we also use for towing (about 5000lbs) and still get 18+mpg at 70mph. Its fuel efficient with a 700mi range, 38+ mpg highway (as high as 45mpg going to Yosemite) and 28+mpg around town. On the open highway it provides incredible handling, that germanic braking, very capable in snow and wet conditions, quiet and likely one of the most reliable cars we have ever owned.... but .... not a "great" overlander.

Also, I don't drive off-road in order to get from one town to the next like others on this forum

The MPG is the trade away for me - I have an X5 Diesel that is mid 30's on the highway - looks like the best the IG will get is maybe 18mpg

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

The MPG is the trade away for me - I have an X5 Diesel that is mid 30's on the highway - looks like the best the IG will get is maybe 18mpg

Yes, mpg.
Willing to part with 100k for a vehicle, but operating costs are a problem for some.
I think with some tweaking a person could get a reliable 20 mpg as a dd.
My 2001 Jeep Cherokee Sport Uplander stayed at 19mpg over all surfaces for 340,000 miles. The chassis are quite similar, but the IG is bigger, more like the Jeep Commander.
I swear many of those vehicles look like first cousins to each other.