Grenadier prices and spec options released

[grenadierboy]

but would the construction of the Grenadier need to be modified (even slightly) to permit the current GVM rating of 3,500 or is there available capacity in the vehicle to increase the rating?

In other words is there a current "buffer" within the existing engineered structure of the vehicle to allow for an increased rating?

I don't know how these ratings are calculated

 

[Davman]

Interesting facts worth noting here for Australia buyers.
For many many reasons we want this vehicle to be classified as a commercial vehicle - No LCT is a main one. Up until now, it appeared  to me that it is not a commercial vehicle but please correct me if I am wrong here.

Typically a vehicle under 3500kg needs to have a 1000kg Payload to be classified as a Light Commercial Vehicle (ADR Category NA)

However we can see that the GVM on the Grenadier has gone slightly over the 3500kg GVM, and has listed 3550KG as its GVM, which automatically gets classed as a Medium Commercial Vehicle (ADR Category NB)

Now this may of been done for emissions, crash testing purposes etc, however I wonder if this automatically will make the Grenadier a Commercial Vehicle from a LCT, Stamp Duty, GST, Depreciation perspective.

If anyone knows more on this, please shed some light.

 

[DaveB]

Had assumed LCT was included in the list price as car manufacturers MRSP generally does. But the website small print does imply it's not included. LCT on $102,000 is about $10,000. Then add stamp duty ~$7,000 and other charges and you (and I) will be at $120,000 to drive away.

Toyota prices are drive away. $125,000 gets you a VX LC300, which I think is the most comparable to the Trialmaster in spec. But... I thought the Grenadier was pitching somewhere between a 70 series and a LC300, not directly at the LC300. Or at a GX LC300 which is $100,000 drive away.

I'm not convinced now - a VX LC300 is tough competition. And yes you'll have to wait a while for a LC300, but it remains to be seen how long the wait for a Grenadier is, and the wait isn't a deciding factor for me on a $120,000 purchase that I intend to keep for 15 years+.

We must be looking at different vehicles as all the Landcruisers I looked at were bland, boring and had no character whatsoever. Extremely capable and very reliable but with the personality of a Jehovahs Witness door knocker.  If that is what a person is looking for then the Grenadier is probably not the right choice for them. 
I was getting very disillusioned looking for a new car as all the SUV's look like soccer mum cars,  BMW & MB were getting way too expensive. The Toyota 79 is just way too primative. Jeeps are rubbish unless you spend $60K modifying them. etc etc

 

[Shopkeep]

If it’s as “Built on Purpose” and over engineered as they claim I would have thought the 3500kg is an artificial GVM rating only to meet UK licensing regulations. Interestingly it noted somewhere that if you specify the built in 5.5t capacity front winch they change the front springs to compensate for the extra load this could produce in use, why can’t they specify heavier duty front and rear springs to increase GVM marginally to 3750kg for markets where it is an advantage?

I would have thought during the design and pre-production process there would have been a non-negotiable kerb weight target of 2500kg, at least in one variant.  Much of the early marketing material hinted at this without specifically stating it.  They would have known a long time ago that they were going to miss this target, it’s not like they chucked it on the scales a couple of weeks ago and found out is was a bit porky.  A big fail IMHO.I still love the concept and general design but for me there are too many other compromises is this vehicle to buy sight unseen if it’s not classed as a commercial vehicle.  The added tax advantages of this classification would have made the total package add up for my intended use. 

Some have suggested that future long wheel base variants might remedy this but I doubt it, extending the chassis is only going to add weight and reduce payload. 

 

[Shopkeep]

Not just for LCT advantages, for Fringe Benefits Tax purposes a four wheel drive vehicle that is not ute or twin cab needs to have a payload of 1 tone or greater to be exempt?

 

[Davman]

Not just for LCT advantages, for Fringe Benefits Tax purposes a four wheel drive vehicle that is not ute or twin cab needs to have a payload of 1 tone or greater to be exempt?

Not just LCT and FBT - but the Depreciation limit kills you too when it comes to Company Tax and GST Claimback as well.

I have asked a question of INEOS customer service whether due to the 3550KG GVM (being deliberately over 3500kg GVM), given that ADR's automatically classify it as a commercial vehicle now, whether the ATO automatically classifies it as a commercial vehicle too.

I have estimated that the difference in overall cost in Victoria, Australia for a business purchase will be $27,000 difference between a non commercial vehicle Grenadier, and a Grenadier that is categorised as a commercial vehicle.

LCT $10K
Vic Government Stamp Duty difference $3k
Unclaimable GST - $3K
Unclaimable Write off - $10K ($40,000 unclaimable expense x 25% company tax rate)

Thats a lot of dollars which can be saved by everyone - not just business.

 

[Shopkeep]

Not just LCT and FBT - but the Depreciation limit kills you too when it comes to Company Tax and GST Claimback as well.

I have asked a question of INEOS customer service whether due to the 3550KG GVM (being deliberately over 3500kg GVM), given that ADR's automatically classify it as a commercial vehicle now, whether the ATO automatically classifies it as a commercial vehicle too.

I have estimated that the difference in overall cost in Victoria, Australia for a business purchase will be $27,000 difference between a non commercial vehicle Grenadier, and a Grenadier that is categorised as a commercial vehicle.

LCT $10K
Vic Government Stamp Duty difference $3k
Unclaimable GST - $3K
Unclaimable Write off - $10K ($40,000 unclaimable expense x 25% company tax rate)

Thats a lot of dollars which can be saved by everyone - not just business.

I am no accountant but my reading of Aussie depreciation requirements for commercial vehicles still requires a payload over 1 ton to remove the limit. Even the UK VAT rules seem to require 1 tonne payload as a minimum (plus other requirements). 

This will probably attract derision from many but I will be better off with a Mazda BT-50 than a Grenadier for tax purposes :-( 

 

[Plainview]

We must be looking at different vehicles as all the Landcruisers I looked at were bland, boring and had no character whatsoever. Extremely capable and very reliable but with the personality of a Jehovahs Witness door knocker.  If that is what a person is looking for then the Grenadier is probably not the right choice for them. 
I was getting very disillusioned looking for a new car as all the SUV's look like soccer mum cars,  BMW & MB were getting way too expensive. The Toyota 79 is just way too primative. Jeeps are rubbish unless you spend $60K modifying them. etc etc

 

[Davman]

I am no accountant but my reading of Aussie depreciation requirements for commercial vehicles still requires a payload over 1 ton to remove the limit. Even the UK VAT rules seem to require 1 tonne payload as a minimum (plus other requirements). 

This will probably attract derision from many but I will be better off with a Mazda BT-50 than a Grenadier for tax purposes :-( 

Agreed on the BT-50 comment - hence why I drive an Amarok.

Anyway, it will be interesting when INEOS Australia get back to us on it.  They have definitely pushed for the Medium Commercial Vehicle classification for a reason with the 3550GVM.

If it isnt a commercial vehicle, then I suggest we all get VERY vocal and ask Justin Hocevar to fix this for us.  Even if it is a GVM Upgrade pack that gets offered, a few thousand spent on that, will save many thousands for everyone else here in Australia.

 

[Plainview]

Agree the LC300 is bland. I've had my LC200 since new 2008 and it's served me very well as a daily driver that can also get me to and on to remote beaches to surf and camp. Was waiting to replace it with the LC300 then I saw the LC300 (which is very uninteresting to look at) and ended up putting a deposit on the Grenadier instead, which has the right look, the right amount of tech (ie not too much) and is an exciting project to be part of.  Its just the price for my build is higher than anticipated, and that takes an adjustment. Also the Grenadier, for my purposes, is slightly less practical than an LC300 as the rear load area is shorter. Everyone has their own factors to consider. I'll probably still buy the Grenadier....

 

[grenadierboy]

OK. Luxury car Tax.

I am in the "weeds" here but, basically, LCT in Australia does not apply to a vehicle that has a load capacity of more than 2 tonnes. This rules out the Grenadier of course.

However, vehicles that have a load carrying capacity of less than two tonnes and are designed to carry BOTH passengers and goods, may still be exempt from LCT if the main purpose of such a vehicle is to carry goods not passengers.

This "main purpose" is broadly determined by the available payload capacity after deducting a specific weight ascribed to passengers.

To work out the load carrying capacity of a vehicle that can carry both passengers and goods, you multiply total seating capacity by 68kg (5 persons for the Grenadier) arriving at 340kg. You then subtract the total passenger weight (340kg) from the load capacity of the Grenadier (835kg for petrol engine version) to work out it's remaining "goods capacity" - in the case, 495kg.

Then, if the total passenger weight is more than 50% of the remaining goods capacity of the vehicle, the principal purpose of the vehicle is to carry passengers not goods and thus LCT applies.  340kg is 69% of "remaining goods capacity".

Therefore, the load carrying or goods capacity of the Grenadier would need to be at least 200kg more than it is; i.e. 1,040kg.

So, I believe LCT will apply unless I have missed something - (which is possible)

 

[DaveB]

I also am not an accountant but I have been claiming depreciation on vehicles used for business use for the last 30 odd years.
These have varied from Subaru's of various models, Mazda BT50, Mazda CX5 and currently a Mercedes Benz C250 CDI Coupe. 
I strongly advise talking with a good accountant. 

 

 

[DaveB]

[QUOTE username=Mark Evans  grenadierboy userid=8954799 postid=1332509574]OK. Luxury car Tax.

I am in the "weeds" here but, basically, LCT in Australia does not apply to a vehicle that has a load capacity of more than 2 tonnes. This rules out the Grenadier of course.

However, vehicles that have a load carrying capacity of less than two tonnes and are designed to carry BOTH passengers and goods, may still be exempt from LCT if the main purpose of such a vehicle is to carry goods not passengers.

This "main purpose" is broadly determined by the available payload capacity after deducting a specific weight ascribed to passengers.

To work out the load carrying capacity of a vehicle that can carry both passengers and goods, you multiply total seating capacity by 68kg (5 persons for the Grenadier) arriving at 340kg. You then subtract the total passenger weight (340kg) from the load capacity of the Grenadier (835kg for petrol engine version) to work out it's remaining "goods capacity" - in the case, 495kg.

Then, if the total passenger weight is more than 50% of the remaining goods capacity of the vehicle, the principal purpose of the vehicle is to carry passengers not goods and thus LCT applies.  340kg is 69% of "remaining goods capacity".

Therefore, the load carrying or goods capacity of the Grenadier would need to be at least 200kg more than it is; i.e. 1,040kg.

So, I believe LCT will apply unless I have missed something - (which is possible)[/QUOTE]


I could guarantee Ineos Australia will be doing everything it can to get away from LCT
At the end of the day we will be told by them that it either does or does not apply.
No point worrying about it until after 18th May.

 

[grenadierboy]

yeah - agree, as the seller, Ineos will either apply or not the LCT, i just think you need to assume it will apply into any analysis of purchase costs in Australia.

 

[Red pepper]

Interesting to see in Australian price list -

Differential Locks Front & Rear:   $ 2790
And
Rough Pack 
- Differential Locks Front & Rear 
- BFGoodrich All-Terrain KO2 Tyre
                                                            $ 2875

$100 difference with tyres..

 

[grenadierboy]

Sounds like a bargin!!

 

[Davman]

[QUOTE username=Mark Evans  grenadierboy userid=8954799 postid=1332509574]OK. Luxury car Tax.

I am in the "weeds" here but, basically, LCT in Australia does not apply to a vehicle that has a load capacity of more than 2 tonnes. This rules out the Grenadier of course.

However, vehicles that have a load carrying capacity of less than two tonnes and are designed to carry BOTH passengers and goods, may still be exempt from LCT if the main purpose of such a vehicle is to carry goods not passengers.

This "main purpose" is broadly determined by the available payload capacity after deducting a specific weight ascribed to passengers.

To work out the load carrying capacity of a vehicle that can carry both passengers and goods, you multiply total seating capacity by 68kg (5 persons for the Grenadier) arriving at 340kg. You then subtract the total passenger weight (340kg) from the load capacity of the Grenadier (835kg for petrol engine version) to work out it's remaining "goods capacity" - in the case, 495kg.

Then, if the total passenger weight is more than 50% of the remaining goods capacity of the vehicle, the principal purpose of the vehicle is to carry passengers not goods and thus LCT applies.  340kg is 69% of "remaining goods capacity".

Therefore, the load carrying or goods capacity of the Grenadier would need to be at least 200kg more than it is; i.e. 1,040kg.

So, I believe LCT will apply unless I have missed something - (which is possible)[/QUOTE]

So based on this, then perhaps the 2 seat version will be classified as commercial then? Which is why LC200 owners take the rear seats out and get the car re-complied before first registration.

 

[grenadierboy]

2 seat version would absolutely meet the test and be exempt from LCT.

I haven't heard of the removing back seat trick but - then you would be driving around a 5 seater with a 2 seat compliance plate.

 

[Cam]

Perhaps we should ask the Admin of this forum to invite one of the customer service people on here to answer a few recurring questions?

 

[grenadierboy]

Great idea Cam!