Failed Bolt - Suspension Arm

[stickshifter]

Not sure how many other ways to say that this bolt was a known problem in earlier productions and has been updated/fixed; and while this is unfortunate to see happen, appears to be the only one from the nearly 5000 people on this site

I hear your frustration, but I think you are missing an important point: its worse if Ineos knew about it!

If it was a known problem, there should have been a recall, and a "Do Not Drive Until Fixed" message put on full blast.

The failure to put out such a notice could have resulted in someone's death. That's not hyperbole. @pete54 is damn lucky the bolt fell out of his vehicle while it was parked in his driveway. Had the bolt failed while doing 80 mph on the highway, things could have gone very badly. If - as you have indicated - Ineos knew about the problem and did not recall his vehicle, they would be in serious trouble.

 

[pete54]

This Forum will kill the Grenadier. I don't disagree this is a major problem. However, reading all these negatives doesn't bode well for the Ineos on this

I hear your frustration, but I think you are missing an important point: its worse that Ineos knew about it!

If it was a known problem, there should have been a recall, and a "Do Not Drive Until Fixed" message put on full blast.

The failure to put out such a notice could have resulted in someone's death. That's not hyperbole. @pete54 is damn lucky the bolt fell out of his vehicle while it was parked in his driveway. Had the bolt failed while doing 80 mph on the highway, things could have gone very badly. If - as you have indicated - Ineos knew about the problem and did not recall his vehicle, they would be in serious trouble.

Many thanks! My suspicion is and remains that this is (at least with more recent production vehicles - mine was October/November 23 production for early December 23 delivery) a one off and it’s comforting for me and hopefully others that so far nobody else on this forum has posted a similar experience. Whilst the bolt failed catastrophically, it wasn’t a catastrophic failure - in so far as the majority of the bolt remained largely in place and therefore (mostly) doing its job. It was slowly working its way out but luckily the nut with part of the sheared bolt fell off where I was able to notice it (i.e. on my driveway) otherwise it could have been a bit more uncomfortable! It’s quite possible that it was delivered from the factory in this state but I don’t think I will ever know.

I am a huge supporter of the Grenadier project and (this aside) love everything about it. I just hope for a very swift turnaround from Ineos with the part so that I can get back on the road asap! It will be great when agents/dealers actually hold a decent stock of parts so something like this that is literally a two minute fix doesn’t have to take days - to be honest, that’s the more annoying bit (assuming I have just been unlucky with a very rare dodgy bolt).

 

[anand]

I hear your frustration, but I think you are missing an important point: its worse that Ineos knew about it!

If it was a known problem, there should have been a recall, and a "Do Not Drive Until Fixed" message put on full blast.

The way it was told to me was that it was in fact a recall at some point in the cycle

 

[Tazzieman]

The way it was told to me was that it was in fact a recall at some point in the cycle

Hence perhaps a dealer missed it?
They have a fair list of notices/recalls and unless you ask to see them, it remains in the bowels of their paperwork .But there will be a paperwork train for the OP to follow.

 

[emax]

This Forum will kill the Grenadier. I don't disagree this is a major problem. However, reading all these negatives doesn't bode well for the Ineos on this Forum.

It's finally up to INEOS to stop bad news.

 

[emax]

To me, the bolts fracture looks like a brittle fracture.

i.e. bad material OR bad torque setting.

 

[255/85]

Whilst the bolt failed catastrophically, it wasn’t a catastrophic failure - in so far as the majority of the bolt remained largely in place and therefore (mostly) doing its job. It was slowly working its way out but luckily the nut with part of the sheared bolt fell off where I was able to notice it (i.e. on my driveway) otherwise it could have been a bit more uncomfortable! It’s quite possible that it was delivered from the factory in this state but I don’t think I will ever know.

While not good it's unlikely that the loss of a single bolt in the rear suspension would have resulted in a catastrophe. It could happen - but it's unlikely.

There are eight (8) of those bolts holding the rear axle in place - two at each end of each control arm. Yes, control arms. They are not radius arms like on an 80 series Toyota, older Fords, Land Rovers, etc. (I don't know what Ineos calls them.) There are four control arms in total which largely prevent the axle housing/assembly from rotating axially or "radially" from the leading point of the control arms as well as locating its position fore and aft. This prevents or helps mitigate changes to the rear differential pinion angle as the suspension cycles when on uneven terrain. When a single control arm bolt - or even a single control arm - is lost, the other three largely hold the axle assembly stationary. Yes, you will get vibration and strong pull especially if speeding along but often tension and wallowing/misalignment at the frame fitting will prevent the bolt from falling out completely and you can be unawares for some time. It has been known to happen in the Jeep world where owners are always making changes to their suspension.

I bet the bolt failed several days before the discovery and the nut/washers which maintain suspension geometry have been laying on the ground where the vehicle is regularly parked. You may have been driving for days with subtle misalignment and didn't even know it. The rattle gun marks on the nut are probably from when the suspension was dialed in at the factory. The nut and eccentric washer may have been on and off a few times thus accelerating the exposure of the bolts flaw. Moral of the story?

Take a gander under your new vehicles every week or two. Put a wrench on major fittings to confirm they're not loose or broken at least as often. I do that for the first six months to a year with my new vehicles, after any major suspension or steering changes, and after every major outing.

I'm just glad no one's hurt!

 

[Roach]

While not good it's unlikely that the loss of a single bolt in the rear suspension would have resulted in a catastrophe. It could happen - but it's unlikely.

There are eight (8) of those bolts holding the rear axle in place - two at each end of each control arm. Yes, control arms. They are not radius arms like on an 80 series Toyota, older Fords, Land Rovers, etc. (I don't know what Ineos calls them.) There are four control arms in total which largely prevent the axle housing/assembly from rotating axially or "radially" from the leading point of the control arms as well as locating its position fore and aft. This prevents or helps mitigate changes to the rear differential pinion angle as the suspension cycles when on uneven terrain. When a single control arm bolt - or even a single control arm - is lost, the other three largely hold the axle assembly stationary. Yes, you will get vibration and strong pull especially if speeding along but often tension and wallowing/misalignment at the frame fitting will prevent the bolt from falling out completely and you can be unawares for some time. It has been known to happen in the Jeep world where owners are always making changes to their suspension.

I bet the bolt failed several days before the discovery and the nut/washers which maintain suspension geometry have been laying on the ground where the vehicle is regularly parked. You may have been driving for days with subtle misalignment and didn't even know it. The rattle gun marks on the nut are probably from when the suspension was dialed in at the factory. The nut and eccentric washer may have been on and off a few times thus accelerating the exposure of the bolts flaw. Moral of the story?

Take a gander under your new vehicles every week or two. Put a wrench on major fittings to confirm they're not loose or broken at least as often. I do that for the first six months to a year with my new vehicles, after any major suspension or steering changes, and after every major outing.

I'm just glad no one's hurt!

Agree but if nuts/bolts are checked by us do we now own the liability? I’m not saying to “not check” but as a matter of a prescribed regular process I would be concerned. If it were 5 years old….maybe but these are brand new. Thoughts?

 

[parb]

this was in the rear? That is much less dangerous than if it was up front. i didn't pay attention to that.

Still, if this is a known problem and can exist in even a single customer vehicle then a defect report and a recall campaign would have been appropriate. I'm actually less worried about this if this is a random event of a bad part than if its a known problem. I suspect this falls more into the a random bad part problem than an QC issue.

 

[255/85]

Agree but if nuts/bolts are checked by us do we now own the liability? I’m not saying to “not check” but as a matter of a prescribed regular process I would be concerned. If it were 5 years old….maybe but these are brand new. Thoughts?

I think you're asking "Are we or own warranty station simply because we tightened a bolt?".

The answer is "No". But I intentionally did not specify applying textbook torque values with a calibrated torque wrench or undertaking warranty work better left to a professional. I said "Put a wrench on major fittings to confirm they're not loose or broken...". Doing as I've suggested will help you find out, as early as possible for your circumstances, whatever questions or concerns you have about your vehicle and be able to communicate those to your dealer or chosen service center immediately rather than waiting for your yearly oil changes, etc.

The truth is that things need to bed in and manufacturing flaws may surface at any time - in six months or six years. With a potentially hard run vehicle like a Grenadier, those occasional checks become all the more important and an intelligent part of ownership duties.

I'm sure you check tire pressure and oil levels on your current car so consider going the extra mile. Rolling around a creeper may not be glamorous but you can consider it just another way of monitoring the condition of your vehicle. Yes, Ineos may be the responsible party if something goes wrong, but that will provide cold comfort if you or a loved one is injured while you're at the helm because you never bothered to give even a layman's inspection. Just a thought.

 

[255/85]

Just so I don't sound so dang preachy...

For those unable or unwilling to perform occasional checks, dropping your vehicle by the local mechanic for a quick check is perfectly acceptable. Ten minutes on a lift should easily confirm all is AOK with brakes, steering, and suspension.

 

[Tazzieman]

Anyone who's done a bit of track time in their sports car is very used to regular spanner/ fluid leak checks, where any loose bolt or nut is going to cost you , one way or another.
It's an easy habit to develop and as the clearance under the Grenadier is big , not a difficult task for those with reasonable agility. The bonus is you learn what goes where and when things don't look right what to do - or at least to be able to describe the part to someone who can help. Useful if stranded out on the track , where most of us will be , right?

 

[David van Breda]

It surely is not my intension to be negative. Nor am I hopeful to see the Ineos venture fail.
On the contrary.
However I am realistically looking at the feedback on this forum and weighing up the conversations with several owners locally.
Furthermore, my own limited experience after a weekend away driving a demo in the terrain and conditions where I frequently use my vehicles, obviously brings me to the conclusion that I will probably not (yet) buy a Grenadier.
When I place the monetary value of the Grenadier next to some rivals, I cannot convince myself to bite the bullet and that all will be ok in the end!
I am too impatient to struggle with the basics when I need a vehicle to perform!

 

[Tazzieman]

It surely is not my intension to be negative. Nor am I hopeful to see the Ineos venture fail.
On the contrary.
However I am realistically looking at the feedback on this forum and weighing up the conversations with several owners locally.
Furthermore, my own limited experience after a weekend away driving a demo in the terrain and conditions where I frequently use my vehicles, obviously brings me to the conclusion that I will probably not (yet) buy a Grenadier.
When I place the monetary value of the Grenadier next to some rivals, I cannot convince myself to bite the bullet and that all will be ok in the end!
I am too impatient to struggle with the basics when I need a vehicle to perform!

You might , like me as an early adopter , have a Grenadier that needs no attention and drives/performs extremely well as promised. Other than some non essential software features, I have no complaints or issues.
Then again , I have always had the spirit of adventure and excitement of the unknown to propel me merrily through life
YMMV

 

[AMD66]

You might , like me as an early adopter , have a Grenadier that needs no attention and drives/performs extremely well as promised. Other than some non essential software features, I have no complaints or issues.
Then again , I have always had the spirit of adventure and excitement of the unknown to propel me merrily through life
YMMV

Any issues , like Tazz, have been minor, and have been sorted quickly.
I have had many more serious faults on so called premium established vehicles.
I love the Grenadier, it is a brilliant vehicle to get you out and about in all conditions.

So I’m off out in my IG as a self nominated ‘pathfinder’ to help ‘shake down’ a class vehicle so people, possibly more cautious than me , can enjoy it for many years to come !

 

[AnD3rew]

This Forum will kill the Grenadier. I don't disagree this is a major problem. However, reading all these negatives doesn't bode well for the Ineos on this Forum.

All forums for all makes are like this

 

[Defenderlover]

Anyone who's done a bit of track time in their sports car is very used to regular spanner/ fluid leak checks, where any loose bolt or nut is going to cost you , one way or another.
It's an easy habit to develop and as the clearance under the Grenadier is big , not a difficult task for those with reasonable agility. The bonus is you learn what goes where and when things don't look right what to do - or at least to be able to describe the part to someone who can help. Useful if stranded out on the track , where most of us will be , right?

Hallo Tazzieman, we are living in lazy " FirstWorld". It`s whith all things: regular maintanance would prevent most problems. But it`s strenuos, uncomfortable and takes precious time.
It`s the same with my Defender: It`s a very relyable car, if you do maintanance regularly yourself. When we were on Safari in southern Afrika(twice 9 months and nearly 70k km) I did maintenance several times a week myself, depending of the routes. Maintenance meant also crawling under the car and checking for oil leaks, loose parts . When I had a worsenig rattle when braking I checked everything and couldn`t find anything wrong. So I went to known Defender workshop near Kruger NP. They could find a loose nut/washer on one of the arms of the rear axle. I had checked it, but didn`t use enough strengh to feel it wasn`t thigtened enough. I`m shure this was done in the factory when assembling the car! I had sometimes the rattle but I coudnt find `the problem.

When I see how much fuss some people here in the forum make because of one broken screw , I know these people live in a virtual world! I am a General Practitioner, a paramedic and a automecanic. I had to wait 5,5 years before i could study medicine. Now I am retired. I am doing all of my cars( 25 up to now) since 50 years myself. At the moment I have 5 cars.

I learnt over the decades: Every car can have problems. Every make has problems whith new models. That`s why I try not to buy a new model within the first 2-3 years. The first buyers are always test drivers with all makes.

In all forums over 90% of the posts are over problems! The same here in this forum. Before I bought my Ford Transit Nugget, I was reading some months in the Nuggetforum in Germany. After reading so many negative posts, I was really in doubt to buy this car. I did it and it`s the best campervan in the world to me!! It needs lots of maitenance through myself, but it`s worth the efford! We will ship it to Northamerika in July for the second time for 5 month travelling.

The Ineos Grenadier is an excellent car with an outstanding quality! To me the best real 4x4 and I will buy it! Don`t forget: It`s not built for BMW X5, Porsche Cayenne and similar cars drivers. The Grenadir is intended to replace the real LR Defender, not the so called New Defender!
At the moment I don`t need it because of my still nearly new real LR Defender, MY 2015.

Enyoy your Grenadier! Most of them will survive their owners! Cheers Hans!

 

[Tazzieman]

I am a General Practitioner, a paramedic and a automecanic. I had to wait 5,5 years before i could study medicine. Now I am retired. I am doing all of my cars( 25 up to now) since 50 years myself. At the moment I have 5 cars.

I learnt over the decades: Every car can have problems. Every make has problems whith new models. That`s why I try not to buy a new model within the first 2-3 years. The first buyers are always test drivers with all makes.

As it happens , my wife is a GP (good at helping me solve car problems!) ; I am a pathologist (6yrs med school + 6 yrs special training) so diagnosing stuff is my job . I also have many old cars (my "patients") that require maintenance. I rarely visit mechanics, and aim to equal factory standards (well I use Porsche and Benz as my standards).
Unlike you I am not retired , but have started the winding down process (work 7/10)

 

[stickshifter]

There are eight (8) of those bolts holding the rear axle in place - two at each end of each control arm.

I'm just glad no one's hurt!

Sounds like we have some similar experience in the Jeeping world, and I'm always interested in learning more. Could you clarify what you are describing in the sentence I pasted in (above). It makes me think I'm missing something. I've installed a handful of suspension lifts - both on my own vehicles and helping out friends (its the best way to get free beer now that I'm too old to have strangers buy me drinks at the bar). I can think of one bolt at each end of each control arm - not two.

There are usually two bolts connecting the front-end bracket for the rear lower control arm to the frame, but just one bolt running through the bracket and the joint of the control arm itself. Below is an image of a rear lower control arm from a Jeep JK - its a similar design to the Grenadier, and its the same arm in which the bolt failed in the truck owned by @pete54. At each end of the arm, we see a hole for a single bolt passing through the joint. If you were to lose one of these bolts while highway driving, the control arm might stay in place, but the loose end could also drop down to the pavement, resulting in some significant problem. Real question: am I misinterpreting your post, or am I missing something else?

Typical rear lower control arm (this one from a Jeep JK):



Rear joint of the rear lower control arm - from the original post:

 

[Miki]

@DCPU .... you got let out early ?