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Concerns, criticisms or complaints? A positive perspective on character and expectation.

James

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Looking at this forum, and probably more so on Facebøk, it is very easy to get the idea that things are going wrong, there are concerns or risks, quality is patchy, the car may not be that good, or has ‘issues'. This is unfortunate, and says a lot about the way the internet works, and how it messes with our psychology. So here’s another perspective.

A summary:
Ineos have knocked it out of the park.
There have, of course, been some issues, notably in systems and communication. The cars have a fairly consistent set of minor niggles, which will be rectified (probably not all immediately). There are a surprisingly small number of problems, and a very few critical ones. Those people’s frustrations are not to be diminished, but the percentages are very low. AND, the faults are so far not consistently showing major design flaws that are ‘baked in’. There are also characteristics of the car that draw much comment.

The car is extremely capable for its purpose, and quite startlingly good at what it is explicitly less biased towards. But it is still the specialist, niche vehicle they promised.

Ineos have done all this in a very few years, and only slipped 6-9 months with all of COVID, supply chain interruptions, transport chaos, energy crisis in Europe, shortage of qualified employees generally, interest rate and inflation shocks, and the war in Ukraine. Any one of which is a major impediment.

Their achievement is nothing short of remarkable.


So, are these the delusions of a ‘fanboy’? Nope.

This car has had expectations on it that were probably unique to a new vehicle. Nearly everyone has come to the Grenadier from loving something; whether Defenders, Jeeps, G-wagens or old Toyotas. No-one ever projected their ‘perfect’ vehicle expectations onto those, because they literally evolved the paradigm over decades with all their warts on view. Defenders were atrociously uncomfortable from inception. Jeeps, well, largely stayed together, didn’t keep you dry and couldn’t handle weight, original Toyotas were agricultural, uncomfortable and boring, g-wagens expensive and puritan… whatever the package, we accepted and learned to love whichever vehicles we did despite, and often because of the characteristics of the design. And because of what they could do.

When the story of the Grenadier came out, we were invited to imagine the best of these vehicles, with ’the problems’ fixed, and as little of 'modern complexity' as could be achieved. That story is the greatest asset, and greatest burden of the Grenadier. Because we all put, unconsciously, a lot of semi-defined detail into that expectation.

The car, of course, has loads of characteristics. Every design resolution of a particular problem has to, one way or another. Some is intentions - safari roof, utility belt, some is consequential - drivers legroom, high floor, and some is accidental.

A huge percentage of the negative atmosphere, or even just impressions from happy people, is this. The car has characteristics. The driving position doesn’t suit everyone, and feels ‘different’ to nearly everyone, because it’s ‘different that they thought it would be'. The steering is not like you might imagine. The windscreen is quite small, the wipers, the doors, the loadspace, whatever, there is now a specific reality to meet the expectation. Every part of the car had to be decided upon, and now we confront the character those thousands of decisions impart.

There’s also a small, relatively neat pile of niggles. Spurious warnings, version one software controls, fuel gauge accuracy, heat shield rattles, and pre-identified replacements of some parts in very early cars. This stuff is expectable in any new model, let alone in a new company’s first car.

Then, there’s a very few failures. As best as the forum distils, these are mercifully rare (and huge sympathy to everyone affected, those with cars in for longer fixes, definitely Jean Mercier, for everything and his dealership reality… ) and they are not consistently pointing to recurring design flaws in the metal.

And then there’s the non-car stuff. Ineos’ communications have been poor. Really poor. Most of the delays and confusion around ordering, or how to deal with them failing their own process steps could have, and should have been handled with fast, clear communicating, and on that count they have not done well. Information shipped with the car is inadequate, for example the electrics, which has caused issues that need not have occurred. But these are of less consequence to the future of the car, thankfully.

They also appear to have underestimated the complexity of developing supporting systems, including software around sales, production and support. Having worked in large software projects, all I can suggest is that I have NEVER seen a company not make this mistake. Ever. Software systems are fiendishly complicated, and that task quite probably is harder than the car itself. There is no reason to believe they will not succeed; they are demonstrating, not perfectly, but quite convincingly a desire to provide really high levels of commitment and dedication to their customers. I'm certainly seeing that here, and hope to continue having reasons to praise their service and their ethics towards us.

It’s not perfect. But nothing is. What it is, is very very good. It makes you smile. It has obvious integrity oozing all over, and feels solid and purposeful, and confident, and a whole pile of emotional things that are quite rare in a lump of machinery.

So, if you are waiting for your car, I hope this long read was reassuring. If you’re yet to decide, accept that you’re buying a new thing, and look through the miasma of moaning at the most solid data you can find (and it is very important we get all the data, good and bad). Remember there’s a big difference between characteristics versus niggles versus faults, that this is a truely niche car that is designed not to suit everyone, and be aware you are probably developing quite big expectations. If you’re not up for that, wait until the second or third year.

If you already have your car…. Well, see you out there, look forward to a meet up and a shared story or three.
 

Max

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I have now had my girl, B57 for nearly 4000klm and had the raised air intake indicator fall out just hanging there...then had a message telling me that the service is due in 21 days...now I have traction, ABS, Engine, and a couple of other icons alongside messages flashing regularly with a lot of different mechanical failures and I am excited because tomorrow I have to drive her for half an hour or more to the agent...after speaking with them this morning they will have a car available for me to use while I might venture into one of Australia's great surfing homes, Noosa...it is tuff owning a Grenadier but I love it... :cool: happy motoring
 

grenadierboy

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Thanks for your thoughts James.
I concur with most of them.

I've just finished a 1.5 hour drive into the countryside (start of a long weekend) along bumpy bitumen and potholed gravel roads.
Loaded full of tools & supplies, 2 dogs, 2 people, clothes & provisions - the Greandier performed perfectly, exactly as I anticipated.

The Grenadier carried everything easily, was beautiful stable on the road and, most importanly, the car "asked" that I be part of the driving process - and this is the part that I liked to most.

For those that didn't expect this or want this - then this maight be the root of some who are disappointed with the Grenadier.
 

Tazzieman

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If my car has a software problem that hasn't been caused by water ingressing into the head unit. I'll be pleased . albeit with caveats.
Assuming the car I've paid for actually gets delivered.
 

bigleonski

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I’ve had some issues with my contract over the past couple of weeks. This follows a false start and a build date that didn’t happen when it should. All good as my personal circumstances now mean the delay suits me just fine.
After contacting Customer Support in the UK re the current problem, I had one person take the problem on, she stayed in regular contact and followed it up internally and kept me in the loop.
Fully resolved today.
Very happy with the level of service on this issue, after a bit of a stuff up.

I think they are getting there.
Now, build it and send it so I can drive it early next year please Sir Jim.
 

AnD3rew

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Looking at this forum, and probably more so on Facebøk, it is very easy to get the idea that things are going wrong, there are concerns or risks, quality is patchy, the car may not be that good, or has ‘issues'. This is unfortunate, and says a lot about the way the internet works, and how it messes with our psychology. So here’s another perspective.

A summary:
Ineos have knocked it out of the park.
There have, of course, been some issues, notably in systems and communication. The cars have a fairly consistent set of minor niggles, which will be rectified (probably not all immediately). There are a surprisingly small number of problems, and a very few critical ones. Those people’s frustrations are not to be diminished, but the percentages are very low. AND, the faults are so far not consistently showing major design flaws that are ‘baked in’. There are also characteristics of the car that draw much comment.

The car is extremely capable for its purpose, and quite startlingly good at what it is explicitly less biased towards. But it is still the specialist, niche vehicle they promised.

Ineos have done all this in a very few years, and only slipped 6-9 months with all of COVID, supply chain interruptions, transport chaos, energy crisis in Europe, shortage of qualified employees generally, interest rate and inflation shocks, and the war in Ukraine. Any one of which is a major impediment.

Their achievement is nothing short of remarkable.


So, are these the delusions of a ‘fanboy’? Nope.

This car has had expectations on it that were probably unique to a new vehicle. Nearly everyone has come to the Grenadier from loving something; whether Defenders, Jeeps, G-wagens or old Toyotas. No-one ever projected their ‘perfect’ vehicle expectations onto those, because they literally evolved the paradigm over decades with all their warts on view. Defenders were atrociously uncomfortable from inception. Jeeps, well, largely stayed together, didn’t keep you dry and couldn’t handle weight, original Toyotas were agricultural, uncomfortable and boring, g-wagens expensive and puritan… whatever the package, we accepted and learned to love whichever vehicles we did despite, and often because of the characteristics of the design. And because of what they could do.

When the story of the Grenadier came out, we were invited to imagine the best of these vehicles, with ’the problems’ fixed, and as little of 'modern complexity' as could be achieved. That story is the greatest asset, and greatest burden of the Grenadier. Because we all put, unconsciously, a lot of semi-defined detail into that expectation.

The car, of course, has loads of characteristics. Every design resolution of a particular problem has to, one way or another. Some is intentions - safari roof, utility belt, some is consequential - drivers legroom, high floor, and some is accidental.

A huge percentage of the negative atmosphere, or even just impressions from happy people, is this. The car has characteristics. The driving position doesn’t suit everyone, and feels ‘different’ to nearly everyone, because it’s ‘different that they thought it would be'. The steering is not like you might imagine. The windscreen is quite small, the wipers, the doors, the loadspace, whatever, there is now a specific reality to meet the expectation. Every part of the car had to be decided upon, and now we confront the character those thousands of decisions impart.

There’s also a small, relatively neat pile of niggles. Spurious warnings, version one software controls, fuel gauge accuracy, heat shield rattles, and pre-identified replacements of some parts in very early cars. This stuff is expectable in any new model, let alone in a new company’s first car.

Then, there’s a very few failures. As best as the forum distils, these are mercifully rare (and huge sympathy to everyone affected, those with cars in for longer fixes, definitely Jean Mercier, for everything and his dealership reality… ) and they are not consistently pointing to recurring design flaws in the metal.

And then there’s the non-car stuff. Ineos’ communications have been poor. Really poor. Most of the delays and confusion around ordering, or how to deal with them failing their own process steps could have, and should have been handled with fast, clear communicating, and on that count they have not done well. Information shipped with the car is inadequate, for example the electrics, which has caused issues that need not have occurred. But these are of less consequence to the future of the car, thankfully.

They also appear to have underestimated the complexity of developing supporting systems, including software around sales, production and support. Having worked in large software projects, all I can suggest is that I have NEVER seen a company not make this mistake. Ever. Software systems are fiendishly complicated, and that task quite probably is harder than the car itself. There is no reason to believe they will not succeed; they are demonstrating, not perfectly, but quite convincingly a desire to provide really high levels of commitment and dedication to their customers. I'm certainly seeing that here, and hope to continue having reasons to praise their service and their ethics towards us.

It’s not perfect. But nothing is. What it is, is very very good. It makes you smile. It has obvious integrity oozing all over, and feels solid and purposeful, and confident, and a whole pile of emotional things that are quite rare in a lump of machinery.

So, if you are waiting for your car, I hope this long read was reassuring. If you’re yet to decide, accept that you’re buying a new thing, and look through the miasma of moaning at the most solid data you can find (and it is very important we get all the data, good and bad). Remember there’s a big difference between characteristics versus niggles versus faults, that this is a truely niche car that is designed not to suit everyone, and be aware you are probably developing quite big expectations. If you’re not up for that, wait until the second or third year.

If you already have your car…. Well, see you out there, look forward to a meet up and a shared story or three.
Well said James. After a couple of teething issues, so far I am loving mine. Did a 300km drive today, was fabulous to drive, high position, great seats, lots of power decent stereo, lots of information feels solid on the road, the bones of the car feel high quality. Apart from the PDC which I just turn off for now, not even any software errors or glitches. It’s not perfect, heating isn’t very effective but I think solvable little pitch animation doesn’t show any upward inclination but I’m sure will be solved and it’s not of any consequence. But so far I love, live driving it and love looking at it
 

Carefant

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Looking at this forum, and probably more so on Facebøk, it is very easy to get the idea that things are going wrong, there are concerns or risks, quality is patchy, the car may not be that good, or has ‘issues'. This is unfortunate, and says a lot about the way the internet works, and how it messes with our psychology. So here’s another perspective.

A summary:
Ineos have knocked it out of the park.
There have, of course, been some issues, notably in systems and communication. The cars have a fairly consistent set of minor niggles, which will be rectified (probably not all immediately). There are a surprisingly small number of problems, and a very few critical ones. Those people’s frustrations are not to be diminished, but the percentages are very low. AND, the faults are so far not consistently showing major design flaws that are ‘baked in’. There are also characteristics of the car that draw much comment.

The car is extremely capable for its purpose, and quite startlingly good at what it is explicitly less biased towards. But it is still the specialist, niche vehicle they promised.

Ineos have done all this in a very few years, and only slipped 6-9 months with all of COVID, supply chain interruptions, transport chaos, energy crisis in Europe, shortage of qualified employees generally, interest rate and inflation shocks, and the war in Ukraine. Any one of which is a major impediment.

Their achievement is nothing short of remarkable.


So, are these the delusions of a ‘fanboy’? Nope.

This car has had expectations on it that were probably unique to a new vehicle. Nearly everyone has come to the Grenadier from loving something; whether Defenders, Jeeps, G-wagens or old Toyotas. No-one ever projected their ‘perfect’ vehicle expectations onto those, because they literally evolved the paradigm over decades with all their warts on view. Defenders were atrociously uncomfortable from inception. Jeeps, well, largely stayed together, didn’t keep you dry and couldn’t handle weight, original Toyotas were agricultural, uncomfortable and boring, g-wagens expensive and puritan… whatever the package, we accepted and learned to love whichever vehicles we did despite, and often because of the characteristics of the design. And because of what they could do.

When the story of the Grenadier came out, we were invited to imagine the best of these vehicles, with ’the problems’ fixed, and as little of 'modern complexity' as could be achieved. That story is the greatest asset, and greatest burden of the Grenadier. Because we all put, unconsciously, a lot of semi-defined detail into that expectation.

The car, of course, has loads of characteristics. Every design resolution of a particular problem has to, one way or another. Some is intentions - safari roof, utility belt, some is consequential - drivers legroom, high floor, and some is accidental.

A huge percentage of the negative atmosphere, or even just impressions from happy people, is this. The car has characteristics. The driving position doesn’t suit everyone, and feels ‘different’ to nearly everyone, because it’s ‘different that they thought it would be'. The steering is not like you might imagine. The windscreen is quite small, the wipers, the doors, the loadspace, whatever, there is now a specific reality to meet the expectation. Every part of the car had to be decided upon, and now we confront the character those thousands of decisions impart.

There’s also a small, relatively neat pile of niggles. Spurious warnings, version one software controls, fuel gauge accuracy, heat shield rattles, and pre-identified replacements of some parts in very early cars. This stuff is expectable in any new model, let alone in a new company’s first car.

Then, there’s a very few failures. As best as the forum distils, these are mercifully rare (and huge sympathy to everyone affected, those with cars in for longer fixes, definitely Jean Mercier, for everything and his dealership reality… ) and they are not consistently pointing to recurring design flaws in the metal.

And then there’s the non-car stuff. Ineos’ communications have been poor. Really poor. Most of the delays and confusion around ordering, or how to deal with them failing their own process steps could have, and should have been handled with fast, clear communicating, and on that count they have not done well. Information shipped with the car is inadequate, for example the electrics, which has caused issues that need not have occurred. But these are of less consequence to the future of the car, thankfully.

They also appear to have underestimated the complexity of developing supporting systems, including software around sales, production and support. Having worked in large software projects, all I can suggest is that I have NEVER seen a company not make this mistake. Ever. Software systems are fiendishly complicated, and that task quite probably is harder than the car itself. There is no reason to believe they will not succeed; they are demonstrating, not perfectly, but quite convincingly a desire to provide really high levels of commitment and dedication to their customers. I'm certainly seeing that here, and hope to continue having reasons to praise their service and their ethics towards us.

It’s not perfect. But nothing is. What it is, is very very good. It makes you smile. It has obvious integrity oozing all over, and feels solid and purposeful, and confident, and a whole pile of emotional things that are quite rare in a lump of machinery.

So, if you are waiting for your car, I hope this long read was reassuring. If you’re yet to decide, accept that you’re buying a new thing, and look through the miasma of moaning at the most solid data you can find (and it is very important we get all the data, good and bad). Remember there’s a big difference between characteristics versus niggles versus faults, that this is a truely niche car that is designed not to suit everyone, and be aware you are probably developing quite big expectations. If you’re not up for that, wait until the second or third year.

If you already have your car…. Well, see you out there, look forward to a meet up and a shared story or three.
Hi James. Many thanks for this. As I am just days away from picking up my Fieldmaster it’s good to read a balanced view.

I agree entirely that one tends to make allowances for the vehicles we know, whilst perhaps applying standards of perfection to the Grenadier. I’m coming from a late old model Defender 110 hardtop, which I loved. If the standards applied by some critics of the Grenadier had been applied to my 110 as a newly launched vehicle, I wonder if LR would have sold a single one! Instead, thousands of us loved or coveted the old 110 despite (and maybe partly because of) its faults, quirks and HISTORY (something the Grenadier won’t have for a while!)

Like you, I’m not going to minimise the pain of others who are having issues with their new Grenadier; I’m crossing my fingers that I’m in the majority who has no such problems.

One criticism I’ve seen (mostly outside this forum) that gets my goat is the relative expense of the Grenadier. I’m not an expert on the exact costs of every alternative, and having paid the balance this week I’m fully aware the Grenadier is not cheap. However, let’s not forget that the G Wagon, with which some people draw comparisons, is £130k! Even totally different types of car to the Grenadier seem eye-wateringly expensive these days; the new electric Mini convertible is £52k!

If the Grenadier does the job you want it to do and puts a smile on your face, then value for money is in the eye of the owner.

One quick question. You say “Information shipped with the car is inadequate, for example the electrics, which has caused issues that need not have occurred.” If you mean information for the owner/driver, can you point me to anything that would help me avoid user error? Cheers.
 
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klarie

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Indeed. There is one statement - No one needs to love the Grenadier. Those who do do. Those who don't, don't.
The Grenadier is not a vehicle for everyone - and perhaps not a real daily ride.
It has issues, flaws.. and may not meet expectations.

One thing - there is information in the spec - before buying such a vehicle - know exactly if you can live with it.
Size, Turning circle, visibility to rear, steering, footwell intrusion .. where and for what purpose is it intended?
Get a test ride.
This is in the spec - read and comply. If the potential buyer is not happy with the spec - dont sign.

and there are the flaws, transfer case - fixed, software seem to be fixed.. door rubber, wiring underneath, power steering, A/C , water entry.. - okay that are quality issues. That may happen.. need to look and put it on Ineos feet. - Check.. but cars get better.

Missing add ons? - Yep ..

But - there is this forum with a lot of people providing infomation and contributing tricks and ideas.
Some stuff Ineos still has to do. I wrote already when I joined the forum comparing Ineos to Toyota or Mercedes or or.. its the new kid on the block and in Automotive Industry a toddler in business maturity. - Do not expect the same as the big boys there. They have a learning curve. But give the toddler a chance to walk and grow.
Ineos serves a niche in the market currently only Toyota may operate in. The other brands rather no, only used or with a significant price tag and not the same intention as Ineos.
 

@nd

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If the Grenadier does the job you want it to do and puts a smile on your face, then value for money is in the eye of the owner.
Hell it does (y) :):) (y) every time i open the door.
The hand book is reasonably extensive, an online workshop manual (as originally promised) would be better.
This forum is an excellent source of information as well.
A half decent auto electrician should also find their way around quite easily.
 

trobex

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When the CEO says that the vehicles going through production have surpassed their expectations, and there are no quality issues... only to have quite a few rise up obviously later when delivered: - you can understand people getting peeved with their issues when its basic stuff going wrong.
 

Earthwatcher

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Good thread James. I've started projecting forward 10 years, wondering how those still owning original models will see themselves and how they will be perceived by others, also how their motors will have evolved. Assuming I could be one, will we have pariah status socially? Will our cars have been taxed or regulated out of existence? Personally I doubt it. I think there's still a future, if possibly a narrow one, for the internal combustion engine.

By then of course, many Grenadiers will be busted up a bit with dents, scuffs and scars. And that could be a good thing. Just now I'm still being too protective of the thing, though I think my son's scuffed it a bit (I daren't look) using it to move house. I want the car to be a workhorse, I want it to get filthy, I want it - and I expect it will - to outlast me! It's inspiring me to think about future adventures that I'd put aside, so yes, I am getting positive vibes from this vehicle. I was going to sell, even neighbours had been chipping in saying it should go, well it's not going to someone else, it's going to work!
 

James

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One quick question. You say “Information shipped with the car is inadequate, for example the electrics, which has caused issues that need not have occurred.” If you mean information for the owner/driver, can you point me to anything that would help me avoid user error? Cheers.
Well, so far the forum is the font of best knowledge, so you’re plugged in already.
the lack of info in the manual on electrics is maybe the most obvious, fuses, wiring, especially the additional outlets, which are not described, and seem more difficult to use than anyone expected, and the way the second battery is wired with outlets, which led to a user becoming stranded in a remote swedish forest. I dont think there’s much that would lead you to make operator errors, although the self locking thing was a surprise, and is still a bit unexplained.
good luck, enjoy your car!
 
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Looking at this forum, and probably more so on Facebøk, it is very easy to get the idea that things are going wrong, there are concerns or risks, quality is patchy, the car may not be that good, or has ‘issues'. This is unfortunate, and says a lot about the way the internet works, and how it messes with our psychology. So here’s another perspective.

A summary:
Ineos have knocked it out of the park.
There have, of course, been some issues, notably in systems and communication. The cars have a fairly consistent set of minor niggles, which will be rectified (probably not all immediately). There are a surprisingly small number of problems, and a very few critical ones. Those people’s frustrations are not to be diminished, but the percentages are very low. AND, the faults are so far not consistently showing major design flaws that are ‘baked in’. There are also characteristics of the car that draw much comment.

The car is extremely capable for its purpose, and quite startlingly good at what it is explicitly less biased towards. But it is still the specialist, niche vehicle they promised.

Ineos have done all this in a very few years, and only slipped 6-9 months with all of COVID, supply chain interruptions, transport chaos, energy crisis in Europe, shortage of qualified employees generally, interest rate and inflation shocks, and the war in Ukraine. Any one of which is a major impediment.

Their achievement is nothing short of remarkable.


So, are these the delusions of a ‘fanboy’? Nope.

This car has had expectations on it that were probably unique to a new vehicle. Nearly everyone has come to the Grenadier from loving something; whether Defenders, Jeeps, G-wagens or old Toyotas. No-one ever projected their ‘perfect’ vehicle expectations onto those, because they literally evolved the paradigm over decades with all their warts on view. Defenders were atrociously uncomfortable from inception. Jeeps, well, largely stayed together, didn’t keep you dry and couldn’t handle weight, original Toyotas were agricultural, uncomfortable and boring, g-wagens expensive and puritan… whatever the package, we accepted and learned to love whichever vehicles we did despite, and often because of the characteristics of the design. And because of what they could do.

When the story of the Grenadier came out, we were invited to imagine the best of these vehicles, with ’the problems’ fixed, and as little of 'modern complexity' as could be achieved. That story is the greatest asset, and greatest burden of the Grenadier. Because we all put, unconsciously, a lot of semi-defined detail into that expectation.

The car, of course, has loads of characteristics. Every design resolution of a particular problem has to, one way or another. Some is intentions - safari roof, utility belt, some is consequential - drivers legroom, high floor, and some is accidental.

A huge percentage of the negative atmosphere, or even just impressions from happy people, is this. The car has characteristics. The driving position doesn’t suit everyone, and feels ‘different’ to nearly everyone, because it’s ‘different that they thought it would be'. The steering is not like you might imagine. The windscreen is quite small, the wipers, the doors, the loadspace, whatever, there is now a specific reality to meet the expectation. Every part of the car had to be decided upon, and now we confront the character those thousands of decisions impart.

There’s also a small, relatively neat pile of niggles. Spurious warnings, version one software controls, fuel gauge accuracy, heat shield rattles, and pre-identified replacements of some parts in very early cars. This stuff is expectable in any new model, let alone in a new company’s first car.

Then, there’s a very few failures. As best as the forum distils, these are mercifully rare (and huge sympathy to everyone affected, those with cars in for longer fixes, definitely Jean Mercier, for everything and his dealership reality… ) and they are not consistently pointing to recurring design flaws in the metal.

And then there’s the non-car stuff. Ineos’ communications have been poor. Really poor. Most of the delays and confusion around ordering, or how to deal with them failing their own process steps could have, and should have been handled with fast, clear communicating, and on that count they have not done well. Information shipped with the car is inadequate, for example the electrics, which has caused issues that need not have occurred. But these are of less consequence to the future of the car, thankfully.

They also appear to have underestimated the complexity of developing supporting systems, including software around sales, production and support. Having worked in large software projects, all I can suggest is that I have NEVER seen a company not make this mistake. Ever. Software systems are fiendishly complicated, and that task quite probably is harder than the car itself. There is no reason to believe they will not succeed; they are demonstrating, not perfectly, but quite convincingly a desire to provide really high levels of commitment and dedication to their customers. I'm certainly seeing that here, and hope to continue having reasons to praise their service and their ethics towards us.

It’s not perfect. But nothing is. What it is, is very very good. It makes you smile. It has obvious integrity oozing all over, and feels solid and purposeful, and confident, and a whole pile of emotional things that are quite rare in a lump of machinery.

So, if you are waiting for your car, I hope this long read was reassuring. If you’re yet to decide, accept that you’re buying a new thing, and look through the miasma of moaning at the most solid data you can find (and it is very important we get all the data, good and bad). Remember there’s a big difference between characteristics versus niggles versus faults, that this is a truely niche car that is designed not to suit everyone, and be aware you are probably developing quite big expectations. If you’re not up for that, wait until the second or third year.

If you already have your car…. Well, see you out there, look forward to a meet up and a shared story or three.
If we did meet up - I'll be the one in the Fiat Panda. I haven't seen my Ineos in 5 weeks and counting. Back at the dealer's to fix a problem which remains undiagnosed.
 

trobex

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If we did meet up - I'll be the one in the Fiat Panda. I haven't seen my Ineos in 5 weeks and counting. Back at the dealer's to fix a problem which remains undiagnosed.
And if it's raining you will have less water in the Fiat door sills or on your feet!!!
 

YellowLab

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I have now had my girl, B57 for nearly 4000klm and had the raised air intake indicator fall out just hanging there...then had a message telling me that the service is due in 21 days...now I have traction, ABS, Engine, and a couple of other icons alongside messages flashing regularly with a lot of different mechanical failures and I am excited because tomorrow I have to drive her for half an hour or more to the agent...after speaking with them this morning they will have a car available for me to use while I might venture into one of Australia's great surfing homes, Noosa...it is tuff owning a Grenadier but I love it... :cool: happy motoring
Hello - was your Grenadier a '23 or '24 model? On the indicator falling out of the RAI - what was the fix on that?
 

FlyingTexan

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Have heard the light does fall out of the RAI - sounds more like a nuisance than anything else as it is well above the safe water level for wading
The RAI I saw the other day was a different light and very sturdy. I grabbed it and tried to wiggle it and couldn’t so I’m guessing it’s been addressed.
 

Andiamo

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The RAI I saw the other day was a different light and very sturdy. I grabbed it and tried to wiggle it and couldn’t so I’m guessing it’s been addressed.
My understanding was the RAI equipped cars that had the light fall out were built for the Australian market and their requirements mandated a larger light than was standard elsewhere.
 
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