Anyone heading to the Allrad offroad show this weekend?


Founding Guard
Make sure you stop off at Matzker and get some pics of Grenadier.   Looking forward to any updates.  See if Matzker will gleam any info about upcoming plans to provide accessories.   


Reservation Holder
Founding Guard
Ineos themselves seem to be there too, as Dirk Hielmann posted a picture on his Instagram.

Anyone going to AA2022, they have a PTO1 vehicle on display, and as far as I'm aware, none of us have seen one in the metal yet.

Interested to get some underside pictures of the PTO1 in comparison to the 2B (LCA mount etc)

also the interior cargo area.

I cant make the show unfortunately , but anyone who is, please get some pictures/videos and get them on the forum!

@emax are you attending? you seem to be a good photographer! 


Grenadier Ordered
Thank you, yes, it's my passion.

And yes, I was there and have seen the PTO1. But first of all I was there with my wife (which I still have to convince) and thus had my 'better' cloths on - as opposed to the M65 style stuff I normally use to wear on such events.

For that reason and moreover due to 32 °C today I didn't crawl under the PTO1.

I just came home from there and first need to recreate a bit, the heat was punishing.

But I have anyway some news to share which I will do maybe later today.


Grenadier Ordered
Unfortunately I am not going to make it. 
I was trying to get there on Sunday but now I have a business meeting in Basel I have to attend 


Grenadier Ordered
Don't worry Dave, it's was a punishing hot day today, and it was terribly crowded and will be even hotter and more crowded the next days. 

But let me first tell a few things about my trip.

We arrived there yesterday afternoon, and that was the better day for us. The reason is, that yesterday was not open to the public, but for the press only. And since I have a journalist pass I had the privilege to enter the fair already yesterday together with my "assistant": my wife.

The temperatures were ok, about 25 to 28 °C. The best possible weather, though partially a bit warm.

Most of the exhibitors were ready to go in the afternoon, so we had some nice opportunities and insights here and there. I had two things in mind for that afternoon: First, to visit Ineos, and second to meet "The Sunnyside", which I am, amongst of all fans, the biggest fan off.

You cannot go to the area by car, but have to take shuttle buses from the parking areas to the fair area. But this day, the buses weren't active, to we took a taxi. And just when I wanted to pay the taxi, "The Sunnyside", Phil and Caro, crossed in front of the car. I was so excited that I dropped all my stuff to my wife and asked her to pay the taxi, and jumped out of the car, which should have a bad consequence later ...

Anyway, I couldn't in that moment get in contact with them as they had some other thing to do, so we went to the press office and then entered the fair.

I guess, that this fair is not as big as what you Aussies and US-guys are used to. But there is Alu-Cab, Ineos, Land Rover, Frontrunner and most of the big names we all know and which are on the European market. There is everything from the Jimny up to 30 ton super campers and expedition models, a really exciting exhibition. The most expensive 4x4 I have seen was a 865'000 € 18 ton expedition model, absolutely crazy.

But let's get back to Ineos.

When I came there, they told me that there was no public passenger test-driving this day. So I talked to a very friendly and absolutely dedicated Ineos-associate, telling him that I am a press member and totally mad about this car. So he kindly asked me to wait a few minutes to clarify what's possible.

To make a long story short: We got a ride :)

He escorted us to the test-course, and so we took a seat in the green prototype with the white roof which we already know from youtube.

I have to put emphasis on the fact, that the Ineos-associate stayed there and cared for us all the time until we came back, and he asked us about our experience and took all the time needed to answer questions and assured us that we could come to him anytime in case anything was unclear. An excellent experience, really. Even the next day (i.e. today) he greeted us friendly and asked whether and what he could do for us. Thank you so much!

You must know, that my wife currently has some problems with her back, and she was afraid of a bumpy ride. But finally she joined me in the car, and the Ineos-associate talked to the driver to be careful. What a service.

I may tell you all, that this man is a reader of this forum. He didn't tell me which account he has, and answered: "I am a read-only-member, and I'd have a big problem if I would act as an Ineos-associate in the forum". And he is absolutely right, I think, So I do of course respect his point of view. But he furthermore said, that he (and Ineos) is very interested about the user questions, experiences and the market reception in general. This is good news, so we all should be as constructive as possible in our discussions to stay a serious taken and become a valuable source of feedback for Ineos.

Back to the test drive: Our driver was "Edi" from Austria. A humorous, friendly, relaxed and charming  test driver, which was very careful not to to catch the bumpy parts of the track. Thank you Edi!

It was only a short track, but impressive though. We had a lateral angle of well 30 degrees, some steep hills and some quite narrow curves having lateral declines and inclines. The very steep gradients haven't been any problem at all for the Diesel to move the almost three ton heavy vehicle forward at will, and at any time without even the slightest sign of strain.

After that, we went back to the Ineos stand and had a coffee and soft drinks.

We later walked around the fair, and saw amongst others the Land Rover stand. When my wife saw the new "Defender" (without knowing anything about the reception of this car and about my view on it) she immediately called out "Das ist ja Augenkrebs!".  Feel free to translate this yourself.

As an anticipation for the next day: The Land Rover stand was, as opposed to all the other highly frequented, overcrowded stands, an oasis of relaxation: it seemed in some way a bit orphaned. This might be due to the clientele on such a fair, which is more camping and outdoor oriented, but not to golf courses. But I still was a bit surprised. The same picture at Matzker: An old Defender 110 which was very much regarded on the left, a permanently occupied Grenadier on the right, and in between a lonesome new defender.  Yes, Land Rover, think about it. I don't think they, if they would try, can ever catch up with the Grenadier again.

On that day, I had some nice conversation with the Land Rover guys. And of course they defended their Defender - pun intended. There was of course no choice for them to tell anything different, so that's ok. But I respect that they at least admitted, that the name "Defender" probably wasn't a wise choice. I agree. The new Defender is not a problem, it's probably a great car.  But it simply isn't a Defender. Period.

And such an admission can only be made on a press day, in a small circle without public audience.

Later than, I went back to the test course and had the most important conversation of the two days (at least for me) with him, his name is "Werner", we all know him already. He is very cool, a great guy :)


But I'll come back to this an an extra thread.

When we left the fair yesterday, I wanted to call a taxi, but I had to notice that I had apparently lost my mobile phone  - which is of course catastrophic. After thinking a few minutes where I might have lost it, I knew what happened: I had left it in the taxi when I had jumped out of the car to talk to The Sunnyside ... OH MY GOD!

What to do now? Well, the easiest thing I could do: With my wifes mobile phone, I called my own one. And guess what? Somebody picked up the call, and it was - the taxi driver! He immediately remembered us, and yes, he would come to to the fair area to bring us back to the city and he'd bring the phone   ...  oh happy day!

REALLY good news. You know what that means: It's not only about the bank-acounts (secured by my phone), the Google-accounts and all such things ...

I paid the taxi, gave him a generous tip and an extra 20 Euros on top. He was happy, I was happy, so all's well that ends well. :)

That was the day yesterday.

Today, we got there at 11AM. Thanks to my journalist pass, we could get in through  the "fast lane".

It was terribly overcrowded already at this time (the fair opened at 10 AM). Long queues everywhere. At the Ineos test course the queue was at least 50 persons, waiting in the sun which was mercilessly beating down all day at 32°C. I was so happy to have been lucky with our test drive the the day before.  But not only there many people. You had to be patient for getting a drink, a coffee, to get to a toilet. Little shade, or everything there occupied.

But today I found "The Sunnyside" at their stand in the Frontrunner tent. We had a nice conversation, I even met their parents there and now know the entire family. Very kind persons. It turned out that Phil and Caro (which run the youtube channel "The Sunnyside") recently moved to a village just 60 Km from my home. Very nice. I think I will visit them there.

After that nice meeting we went one more time to the Ineos stand, and made some photographs. But I only concentrated on some details of the second seat row - I was simply not aware of the fact to see a PTO1 - and that's why I simply don't have the photos I'd like to have. And I only had a pocket camera with me, because the topic of the day wasn't photography, but rather convincing my wife of the Grenadier. So forgive me not to fulfill ones or the others expectations.

I will however post some interesting information about the second seat row and the Utility / Station Wagon question in an extra thread.

For me personally, these are the decisive point for or against a certain variant.

That was basically it.

I'll post the link to the extra thread here when done.

EDIT: And here it is.



Grenadier Ordered
[QUOTE username=ADVAW8S userid=8452459 postid=1332844821]Make sure you stop off at Matzker and get some pics of Grenadier.   Looking forward to any updates.  See if Matzker will gleam any info about upcoming plans to provide accessories.   [/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, I was not able to go to the fair and thus not ask what, if any, extensions are planned. I am missing, for example, a tank extension and also a parking heater.

With GMB I had once exchanged to the roof rack because I am fully convinced of my GMB carrier on the Defender, but then ultimately ordered the carrier at INEOS, here is probably on the part of GMB still no roof rack planned for the time being.

INEOS wants to serve the aftermarket itself, but I think we just need patience until the vehicle is on the road and then see what is gradually available.

If only the impatience would not be ;-)


Grenadier Ordered
[QUOTE username=emax userid=8900646 postid=1332851166]

That was basically it.


Basically? That was a more than detailed report and well worth reading. Great, thank you!
@emax, I can tell you've earned your journalist pass. I'm wondering the outcome of convincing your wife... What did she like and dislike. I will have the same challenge, I've told my wife it's a lifetime companion and we'll be saving money in the long run with our adventure holidays etc.. ??????


Grenadier Ordered
> I'm wondering the outcome of convincing your wife.

She told me yesterday, that she has 'agreed', but is not (yet) really 'convinced'. But that's ok. My mother used to say "Der Appetit kommt beim Essen". And I am sure, she will love it. She was similarly reluctant when I bought my MB 220CDI Station Wagon in 2000. I did cost 97000 DM in that time, which is today about the same number in Euros. And today she doesn't want to give it away. And she loves cars - which is the best.  ?

The discussions about how to modify it have already started ... how nice is that? .? :)

About the costs: It is no question that this car is not cheap to maintain. And I didn't try to tell her rubbish about it. But I told her (and I am convinced this is so):
  • This car will in the medium-term become more expensive. My guess is, that future buyers should be prepared for a price increase of maybe 10% or so: The inflation in Germany (and similarly in the EU) is at 8% !!!!!
  • Christian said yesterday, that Ineos could every time sell the Grenadier in the price range of a new Defender. And I tend to agree. If the market will pay this price, I could even be that the above suspected 10% would be a dream to have. It will only depend of the greediness of Ineos or their controllers, or on the intents or good will of Sir Jim.
  • So if we find that the car is not right for us (which I don't believe) or that we can simply not afford it any more, we can still sell it. With a to be expected medium-term increase of the price we would likely not lose much money. And even then, we will have had a good time for this with the Grenadier.
  • On the other hand, If you save your money (we don't luckily have to take out a loan), your money melts away like snow in the sun: with a (e.g.) 75000 € amount, you will after a year only save the value of (yet) 69000 €, the rest is financing the state- and even worse the (fck**n)  EU--debts  by inflation .
  • If one counts that against the probable price development, the risk to make a wrong decision is IMHO low and thus justifiable.
But as usual: predictions are of course notoriously difficult as far as the future is concerned.


Grenadier Ordered

> What did she like and dislike

Dislikes / uncertainties:
  • Fuel costs (my answer: We'll keep the other car for the short drives. The Grenadier can serve as an every day car but does not have to. We will have it for holiday, weekend trips and joy of traveling. During corona (and other plagues they will probaly "install"), if hotels are shut down, I will not want to stay in prison at home just for that reasons. On long-distance trips, the Grenadier might consume less than 10l/100km).
  • insurance and tax costs (my answer: these are company costs (I run an Ltd.). As an N1 class vehicle the tax will (here in Germany) be lower than our MB from 2000. Insurance is not a big deal as we have a big rebate after 20 years or more of accident free driving: 560 € instead if 470 €).
  • workshop costs (my answer: Once a year, the first two at BMW. The following ones by myself).
  • Very big, parking problems (my answer: there is a front and read park-assistant and a read view camera. We have as well the SLK if we have to go in the city. And I remembered her that she at first found my MB Station Wagon too big as well. Furthermore she liked to drive the 300GD. Argument more or less busted).
  • We live on a hill. So snowy days will not anymore be a threat.
  • Traveling with the car
  • Powerful
  • Spacious
  • it's new (!)
  • Elegant
  • Comfortable
  • Safety
  • Enjoyment of life
  • Our old MB Station wagon needs a successor in a year or two. (with the Grenadier, we can solve this problem NOW. And cars won't become cheaper).
Hope that helps. ?


Grenadier Ordered
[QUOTE username=emax userid=8900646 postid=1332870419]
  • insurance and tax costs (my answer: these are company costs (I run an Ltd.). As an N1 class vehicle the tax will (here in Germany) be lower than our MB from 2000. Insurance is not a big deal as we have a big rebate after 20 years or more of accident free driving: 560 € instead if 470 € …./QUOTE]
There you are wrong, sorry. As your Grendadier is a N1 car, it will be way higher, I estimate about 900€ basic and with full insurance 1300€. Just an extrapolation from my Defender 90 which is 773€ basic, maximum rebate already deducted. The rebate is not as high as with your M1 car also, it ends at level 10.

To N1 cars belong all these suicide delivery trucks, driven mostly by young people who do not own the car. They have much more accidents than the passenger cars.

You wrote that you will ask HUK insurance company for the fee. I would be interested what say.


Grenadier Ordered
I already did, but the guy at the phone where I finally ended up, told me that he has to forward this to their "Typschlüssel" department, and then we have to wait until they got this into their database. If I had an answer I'd for sure written this here. ;-)

I have just calculated an offer at  the HUK24 website. As the Grenadier doesn't yet exists there, I chosed a MB Sprinter with the following parameters:
  • Me: Company (not private)
  • No employment relationship (kein Beschäftigungsverhältnis - I am retired by means of my official state)
  • I have a house insurance at HUK24
  • yearly mileage: 12000 Km
  • Car parks in a Garage
  • Car utilization: mostly for business
  • used for commercial persons- or  goods transport (i.e.: Transportunternehmen/transportation business): no
  • other drivers: no (my wife and my son - and in general even other persons - may however drive the car occasionally without breaching the contract)
  • all drivers are 25 yrs or older:  yes
  • take over rebate from other contract: yes, SF 25 (25 yrs accident free driving)
  • comprehesive cover (Vollkasko): yes, excess (Selbstbehalt) 500€
I chose the Sprinter as this is such a harakiri car.  If you have a closer match, I'd like to recalculate it.

Here's the yearly quote:



Grenadier Ordered
This is less than I expected, but the Sprinter has only 190 HP. I couldn't find something closer which has, to my best knowledge, a guaranteed N1 classification. and an MTOW of 3.5 tons. But you (anybody) can easily do that as well as the calculator doesn't depend on a registration.

I guess, you confused 'N1' car-category with "commercial transportation' utilization. I think that those are two different things in Germany: The classification is a tax matter. The utilization is an insurance matter.

This is similar to other weird regulations: I might be registered as a freelancer but will be taxed as a "Gewerbetreibender"*) (which did indeed happen to me some time ago).

*) this is almost impossible to translate because the underlying tax-rule is such perfidious. There is likely no similar thing known in other (democratic) countries. The dictionaries say "contractror", "trades man" etc., but it is meant to be a Ltd, a crafting company or the like - as opposed to some so called 'academic' type of work  - which is not subject to "Gewerbe"-tax. This protects lawers, dentists, medicals, tax-accountants and the like from having to pay this tax - surprise, surprise ...


Grenadier Ordered
It makes a difference if you have a house insurance there or not (though not huge).

The HUK24 is cheaper in any respect. But they do NOT OFFER CONTRACTS for commercial transportation and point you to the HUK.

I have by the way not signed in to make the calculation (and I have no cookies left over as they are all deleted when I close firefox).
I don't want them to calculate based on a profile which they probably maintain.